Dr Deborah Webster on helping our families be Digitally Aware, Wise and Resilient
The focus of this podcast episode revolves around the imperative need for individuals, particularly parents, to cultivate digital awareness, wisdom, and resilience in their children amidst the pervasive presence of technology in contemporary society. In a compelling dialogue with Dr. Deborah Webster, we explore her extensive doctoral research and the consequential insights gleaned from her work at Thrive Academy. The conversation highlights the dual nature of the digital realm, highlighting both its potential benefits and inherent dangers, especially concerning internet safety and mental well-being. Dr. Webster articulates the significance of fostering constructive discussions about digital engagement and navigating the complexities of social media, particularly in light of the challenges posed by comparison and the fear of missing out. This episode serves as a clarion call for proactive engagement and education, equipping parents and guardians with the tools necessary to support their children in this digitally dominated environment.
Takeaways:
- The digital realm is an integral aspect of our lives, necessitating wise navigation for both parents and children.
- Dr. Deborah Webster's research highlights both the positive and negative impacts of social media on youth well-being.
- Parents must engage in proactive conversations with their children about internet safety and responsible usage of digital devices.
- Understanding the potential dangers of comparison and FOMO is crucial for maintaining healthy self-esteem in young individuals.
- Education serves as a vital tool in equipping both children and parents to navigate the complexities of the digital landscape.
- Encouraging open dialogue about online experiences fosters a supportive environment for children to share their challenges.
Transcript
Hey there, and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Speaker A:This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.
Speaker A:My name is Aaron Santemaier and I get to be your host.
Speaker A:Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast, Dr. Deborah Webster.
Speaker A:She spoke at a recent CSPN conference, and when the attendees that I know came back, they said, you need to have her on the podcast.
Speaker A:She provided some insightful information on.
Speaker A:Yeah, she talks about being digitally aware, wise, and resilient.
Speaker A:And so we have what I think is an insightful conversation on her doctoral research and the work that she's done through Thrive Academy on the understanding that the digital world is just part of our lives.
Speaker A:It's part of our lives, of our children and those we love the most in our family.
Speaker A:And she gives some very valuable insights on how we can navigate that, recognizing there are some positives, but there can be some real dangers when it comes to Internet safety.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Well, I would think at least no for me, for my family.
Speaker A:It's something as a father that I thought a lot about.
Speaker A:What to allow, when to allow, how to allow.
Speaker A:Knowing the impact that the digital media can have, but also understanding there's some beautiful things that come with it.
Speaker A:How do you navigate that?
Speaker A:How do you have those conversations?
Speaker A:How do you be a parent, not necessarily be the friend and say yes to everything?
Speaker A:And so Deborah gives us some great concrete possibilities and some great insight and really enjoyed having her on the podcast.
Speaker A:Do want to ask you to continue to send in your questions for Backchannel with foet.
Speaker A:That's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him.
Speaker A:Also ask you to subscribe to the podcast.
Speaker A:I know the podcasts I subscribe to are the ones I listen to.
Speaker A:They show up on my feed and know what I'm going to be listening to throughout the week.
Speaker A:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker A:So here we go.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to be here today with a new friend of the podcast, Deborah.
Speaker A:Deborah, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker B:Thanks so much for having me on, Deborah.
Speaker A:As I was sharing before we hit record, I have some friends, they got to hear you speak and they said, this lady has a lot of wisdom and insight and you need to have her on the podcast.
Speaker A:So here we are today.
Speaker A:So thank you for agreeing to do this.
Speaker A:Deborah, will you share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you some questions?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:So, yeah, my name is Deborah.
Speaker B:I live In Northern Ireland.
Speaker B:I have two children and I'm married to Scott, he's a minister of a local church.
Speaker B:And my children, one is 12 and one is 15 years old.
Speaker C:Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.
Speaker A:So it's excited to be connected.
Speaker A:Today you shared at the CSPN conference about some of the doctoral research that you had done on students and social media and some of the mental health impacts on this.
Speaker A:Could you share kind of like what compelled you to focus on that and then maybe some of the things you found out through your doctoral research?
Speaker B:Yeah, so I guess it started a few years ago and my previous role, my work was safeguarding.
Speaker B:So looking at keeping children safe, child safety, and one of the areas that kept coming up time and time again was children spending time online and meeting the wrong people and making relationships that were inappropriate.
Speaker B:So I guess the time came for me to look for something else.
Speaker B:Like I really fancied a change, as we do from time to time, the opportunity came for me to study at Queen's University in Belfast.
Speaker B:And that was a PhD.
Speaker B:And the nature of that was looking at how using social media impacts the well being of children and young people.
Speaker B:So in other words, like not even just the safety side in terms of who they might be contacting, but actually if they're scrolling through Instagram or playing games online, you know, what impact can that have actually on how they feel about themselves, about how they feel about the world around them, about their mood, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that was the nature of it.
Speaker B:And I spent three years doing that, reading about it, drinking a lot of coffee.
Speaker B:I really enjoyed that.
Speaker B:And also speaking particularly with 13 year olds living in Northern Ireland at the time.
Speaker B:And what I was trying to find out then, as I said, was how using social media impacts their well being.
Speaker B:And probably what came out.
Speaker B:Well, there's two things I would like to say that came out.
Speaker B:The first thing is that actually using social media can have a positive impact on their well being as well as a negative impact.
Speaker B:I thought that was really key.
Speaker B:And it's, you know, when I'm talking to different groups, whether it's young people or parents, it's always important to start with there are positives about this.
Speaker B:You know, it's not all bad, otherwise I would just be saying let's get rid of the lot.
Speaker B:But I suppose my, you know, my understanding is this is, this is the world we live in, this is the world our children live in and we need to learn to live well with it.
Speaker B:So, yeah, one of the things came out was some of the impacts are positive, but also some of the impacts are negative.
Speaker B:And I think the negative one that came out the most was comparison children, young people.
Speaker B:And it actually affects adults as well, doesn't it?
Speaker B:We look at other people's lives online and we think, oh, wish that was my life, wish I had all their money, wish I looked so perfect like they do, you know, and actually the 13 year olds I was talking to, they were looking at these edited lives of other people because, you know, who shows their real life online?
Speaker A:Sure, sure.
Speaker B:And then they were feeling low self esteem, insecure, not wanting to, you know, leave the house without makeup and not feeling confident in themselves because they were spending so long comparing their lovely ordina selves with the edited selves of other people.
Speaker B:That came out more than anything at all.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, still now with my work with young people and with younger children, it's definitely a thing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And as you said, I think that speaks to adults too.
Speaker A:I'm an adult and it is an interesting thing for us that it does create this sense of comparison.
Speaker A:Were there other things that some of the negatives and maybe some of the positives, would you share some of those?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I mean, I think really when you speak to young people, you know, why, why do you want to be on Snapchat?
Speaker B:Why do you want to be on Instagram?
Speaker B:Usually the answer is I want to talk to my friends, you know, and if my friends are on Snapchat, I want to, would want to be there too.
Speaker B:So a lot of it is to do with connection, isn't it?
Speaker B:And you know, particularly for children who maybe are a little bit isolated or they maybe don't have many friends with similar interests, they can reach and connect around the world and family members as to as well.
Speaker B:So that was, was the most positive part that came out of it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So another than comparison, were there some things that you said that was one of the main negative thing?
Speaker A:Were there other, other, other little things that came or not little, but other things you noticed too?
Speaker B:Yeah, totally.
Speaker B:There's a lot of that, you know, feeling left out.
Speaker B:We talk a lot about fomo.
Speaker B:Perhaps you've heard of that, the fear of missing out.
Speaker B:But I would say what came out of my research was just more of this feeling left out.
Speaker B:And the young people that I was talking to were saying, yeah, you know, we were tagging people were tagging their friends, but they didn't tag me, you know, and one we girl I remember very clearly and she said, I Actually feel a lot more lonely now since I've had social media than before.
Speaker B:I thought that was quite sad because I think before she was totally oblivious to what everyone else was doing and very happy living her own life.
Speaker B:And then all of a sudden, she realized what was happening around without her.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:So as a parent, you know, my kids are at the present time 21 and 18, but I, you know, I didn't.
Speaker A:You mentioned some of the apps.
Speaker A:I don't know, like, what apps are out there.
Speaker A:Like, how does a parent.
Speaker A:And how does a student.
Speaker A:How do they navigate what apps are?
Speaker A:Yeah, maybe they all have positive and negatives, but how do parents have those conversations?
Speaker A:How do students begin to think about, like, the different apps are out there and how they engage with them?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, I would say, yeah, you can't say, oh, that app is CF or that app is okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:And a lot of these are trends, aren't they?
Speaker B:You know, they come and go.
Speaker B:But I would say it's really important that parents do their homework and they find out a little bit about how the apps do work, because some work in different ways.
Speaker B:You know, for example, the likes of Snapchat, you know, messages disappear from the phone.
Speaker B:But of course, children need to know that just because it's not on your phone doesn't mean it has disappeared forever.
Speaker B:Obviously, the person they sent it to, they can screenshot, they can save that, they can send it in a group chat, they can send it to 500 people.
Speaker B:The fact that they think it's going to disappear or it disappears from their phone can encourage them to say something a wee bit more risky or a wee bit cheeky.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I think that's really important.
Speaker B:The parents do their homework and find that out.
Speaker B:And even if their child maybe gets a mobile phone for the first time, it's not about, yeah, let them have whatever app they want to.
Speaker B:You know, that'd be so overwhelming if you suddenly signed up to all these apps.
Speaker B:So it would be looking at each app individually and thinking, right, you know, what are the benefits of this one?
Speaker B:Or.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I suppose children and young people, they're going to want to be on the apps their friends are on.
Speaker B:So that's usually what it comes down to.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And as a parent, of course, it can be so hard to say no.
Speaker B:And I think a lot of the time I say to parents, we're not always saying no, but we're maybe saying not yet.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's a good word.
Speaker A:Good word for us.
Speaker A:For sure, yeah.
Speaker A:And I know one of your passions is the educational part of this and how increasing education can help increase digital resilience and also have positive impacts on our mental health.
Speaker A:Can you share the role you see in education and how it helps?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I do think a lot of it comes down to education because, you know, let's face it, it's not going away anytime soon.
Speaker B:Even last night at a workshop I was taking, I was speaking to one of the parents.
Speaker B:He is very strict with his child.
Speaker B:She's not allowed certain apps and yet she still ended up in a situation because she was bellumed doing a video with her friends and then there was negative, you know, consequences after that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's why for me, the best way we can help our children, not just to keep them safe online, but to protect their well being and mental health, is education.
Speaker B:Educating the child, the young person, but also equipping the parents to give them the tools to try to help them to help their child and also informing those who work with them.
Speaker B:You know, often people who work with children, they're very, okay, they're very familiar with the apps and how it works, but not always.
Speaker B:And they don't need to have a real detailed knowledge, but they kind of do need to know a little bit about the risks or about maybe generally how these things work.
Speaker B:So for me, a lot of it is preventative education, as I would call it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So spend a lot of time in schools.
Speaker B:I was just there in a school this morning with a primary school.
Speaker B:So that would be sort of age 8, up to 8, 9 and 10 year olds.
Speaker B:And we're just talking about the things that are good about devices, but the things that are not so good, talking about, you know, situations that they might be in and what they should do and what they shouldn't do.
Speaker B:So yeah, it's, it's educating them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is a big part of it.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:So situations, you mentioned situations they might be put in.
Speaker A:How do you, what are some of those situations that, that they might be put in and how do you have those conversations with them?
Speaker A:And then maybe some advice for parents on how they can have those conversations with their kids.
Speaker A:Because I think that some of the, there is a little bit of an intimidation factor, I'll say as an apparent.
Speaker A:Because I don't understand how all the apps work.
Speaker A:So then you ask questions and then you feel like, man, I don't know where I'm going with this, but how do we help our kids and maybe recognize some of the Situations they're getting put in.
Speaker A:And then how can parents begin to have those conversations with their kids?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, I think it's really important that we try to have these conversations as naturally as possible.
Speaker B:And some of the things I would be saying to children that I was today would be, you know, if anyone puts pressure on you to do something online that you're not happy doing, you can say no.
Speaker B:And that's really obvious, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, but that might not be obvious to a 10 year old.
Speaker B:Someone they know or someone they don't know messages them and says, hey, send me a photograph of yourself in your swimwear.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And they think, oh, comfortable like that.
Speaker B:But oh, I should do it because this person has told me.
Speaker B:So it's really about getting them to think about it and empowering them.
Speaker B:Another sort of buzzwords I have is stop, block and talk.
Speaker B:So somebody says something negative or mean or unkind, which to be honest, I hear happens so much, it's stop.
Speaker B:Which means, you know, don't reply.
Speaker B:There's all that temptation I think even as adults to, you know, reply and defend yourself.
Speaker B:But it just makes it worse usually, doesn't it?
Speaker B:So it's stop, block, block that person.
Speaker B:You know, if they're on an app, they should know and find out how they can do that.
Speaker B:And talk, obviously talk to an adult or talk to a parent about it.
Speaker B:So it's things like that and other things as well, like about thinking how someone else might feel.
Speaker B:So maybe if they take a photograph of a friend or maybe messing about, somebody pulls a silly face, then they send that around, a group chat and other people start laughing at that person and that person is really thinking, you know, I'm really upset, why did you send that?
Speaker B:That's so embarrassing.
Speaker B:And you know, these kind of things happen so much in friendship circles and in schools.
Speaker B:So it's really about, you know, thinking before you share something like that.
Speaker B:Think, well, how would I feel if that was me?
Speaker B:And certainly in Northern Ireland we've had a lot of issues that's happening a few years ago, particularly about staff in schools.
Speaker B:You know, so some kids were videoing their teachers and then these were going viral.
Speaker B:Police were involved, pupils were taken out of school.
Speaker B:So it's also helping children, young people to realize the seriousness of these things.
Speaker B:Things, you know, the law still exists on social media as it does in real life, but they do not know that.
Speaker B:And how do they not know unless we tell them?
Speaker A:Yeah, and those are, there's definitely conversations, conversations that are, they're valuable to have in a proactive way rather than finding out later that it has, you know, the thing you mentioned about comparison and the desire to, you know, fear of missing out.
Speaker A:I think that maybe if somebody is asking you to do something online and you're the comparison or wanting to please or to.
Speaker A:If you're feeling lonely, then engaging in those conversations.
Speaker A:And I think maybe just being.
Speaker A:Being aware of that as a parent and then also as a student, because.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:And I think as well as having the conversations, there are practical things obviously the parents can do.
Speaker B:Sometimes they don't know about them or they maybe don't feel empowered to do them.
Speaker B:So, you know, for example, there's quite a few different parent apps.
Speaker B:Apps.
Speaker B:And that can help.
Speaker B:It might not show you what is on your child's phone, you know, as in it might not show you the messages, but it will show you what apps they're using, how long they're using them for.
Speaker B:And often parents would then limit those times, which is good.
Speaker B:Like, lots of people will say, oh, phones are addictive, or, you know, I can't put my phone down.
Speaker B:So limiting their time is really, really important.
Speaker B:Also what I recommend often at the parent workshops is a phone pledge.
Speaker B:And the idea of this is, you know, if a child is getting a phone for the first time, the parent is sitting down with them and saying, look, this is not a toy.
Speaker B:This comes with responsibility.
Speaker B:If you want this phone, there's some things you have to agree to and things that you have to agree not to do.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:You know, and you could have, obviously you could make your own and list anything you want, but it's making sure you've had those conversations.
Speaker B:And that could be things about, you know, sending images or only downloading apps that your parents have agreed to, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:And I think that's really important.
Speaker B:So the child doesn't just get the phone for the first time.
Speaker B:And yeah, even sometimes out of naivety ends up getting themselves in.
Speaker B:In the bother.
Speaker B:And that has happened a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think the other thing online, you know, things happen quick, you know, and so I, you know, I would like to say that I've never fallen in but into these things.
Speaker A:But, you know, I responded one time an email way back in email, but I just got on, was answering emails, did, you know, just following direction.
Speaker A:And all of a sudden it was a mess, you know, I mean, and I think that some things about being on the phone, you.
Speaker A:I loved how you said stop.
Speaker A:You know, B.L.
Speaker A:but if you stop, it gives you an opportunity to think, you know, I mean, and I think with the digital world things are going fast and then you can end up in a place you didn't think you were going to be quickly.
Speaker A:And I think maybe having those conversations with our kids would be valuable.
Speaker A:You mentioned earlier on that you had conversations with an eight or nine year old and to their level, how do you, any, any advice to parents maybe that have smaller kids?
Speaker A:Because I, you know, as my kids are older now, but I go out, I see parents, you know, their kids have at a restaurant or whatever, three or four with the phone and then there's you know, eight or nine because there is different levels of responsibility.
Speaker A:Is that, is that a fair assessment?
Speaker B:Oh yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:And I think for younger children like the three or four year olds, a lot of it is YouTube and a lot of things on YouTube is absolute nonsense and things that really we don't want our children to be watching.
Speaker B:Yeah, of course, you know, I sort of compare it to when my children who are a wee bit older now were 3 and 4 and you know, they watched a DVD which sounds really quite old fashioned.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But the DVD finished in 25 minutes and that was their screen time.
Speaker B:Yeah, which that's a problem I think with a 3 and 4 year olds now they're just handed the phone to keep them quiet and they can very quickly be onto something else.
Speaker B:It could be touching a button and onto something that's inappropriate, something that pops out of nowhere and also it never ends and then can be really challenging to say, no, we're going to put that away now, we're going to do something else.
Speaker B:So it's a, it really is a challenge for parents and parents so often they're just doing their best and they're busy and it's, you know, it's so handy to say here but I always encourage as far as possible, you know, you have other things in your, in your bag, your books, your puzzles, your whatever it is and it's trying to make sure that the, the device isn't the only go to for the child that they really are not missing out on other things like being outside, like all in all the play and all of that.
Speaker B:They need for their, not just their imagination but their fine motor skills as well at that age.
Speaker B:And certainly that's something I've been hearing from educators that children at that age are arriving to school and they don't have, not in the same way they did before, but yet they can swipe a Screen.
Speaker B:So, you know, I think parents got to be really intentional about it, whatever age their children are, to make sure that they have other things that they're involved in that doesn't just involve screens or wi fi.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so some of the people that'll be listening into this podcast, maybe they don't have kids or maybe in the missions world we call it, like your aunts and uncles and the people around, how can they advocate for students, students and for kids when it comes to this also, and maybe support parents in their, in their desires to help it be social media and the Internet to be a positive place.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, I think, you know, we can all do so much, you know, to help young people.
Speaker B:And also parents, I would say, first of all, pray for them because they really need it.
Speaker B:You know, so often, and I am a parent of a 12 and a 15 year old, but, you know, so often that's what sometimes these arguments and things like that can come down to.
Speaker B:I want more screen time or you know, get off your phone and this kind of stuff.
Speaker B:So it is, it is the challenge of this generation.
Speaker B:I do believe that.
Speaker B:And so we need prayer.
Speaker B:But as well as that, I would say in my experience, young people are usually really quite happy to talk about what they do online.
Speaker B:And I think, especially if someone is coming at it from a non judgmental way, you know, someone, someone is being positive or said, oh, you know, wow, do you create videos online?
Speaker B:Oh, can I see?
Speaker B:Or how does that work?
Speaker B:Teach me.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And do you know all these people you speak to?
Speaker B:Have you met all these people before in real life?
Speaker B:You know, I think having the conversation is bound to help.
Speaker B:And I do think, yeah, there might be situations where if a young person does get in, you know, come across something they don't like or something they're worried about, they may not tell their parents.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But if they have another, you know, responsible adult or someone that they can go to, that's what I would want for my kids if they're not going to talk to me.
Speaker B:So do they have other role models, other people in their lives that they will go to?
Speaker B:Because that's really important.
Speaker A:Oh, for sure, for sure.
Speaker A:You mentioned about some of those conflictive conversations with your, hey, you need to get off your phone or hey, you know, I want to, I want more screen time.
Speaker A:I know you do parents seminars for parents and conferences for parents.
Speaker A:How do you help them navigate those conflictive conversations and kind of competing demands.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The demand of the parent and the demand of the child or the Student.
Speaker A:How do they navigate those competing demands?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, I think a lot of it, I suppose, is looking ourselves at the relationship we have with our devices in the home.
Speaker B:And yeah, that comes with ourselves, doesn't it?
Speaker B:Children learn by example.
Speaker B:And obviously many people, I'm sure, like me as a parent.
Speaker B:You're using your phone for work, you're on your laptop for work.
Speaker B:So it's making sure that whenever my children are talking to me, I'm putting that down.
Speaker B:I'm giving them my attention.
Speaker B:Do you know, at the dinner table, no devices, times and places.
Speaker B:At home, we're playing board games, we're doing things together, we're going out for walks, we're of kind camping.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, don't get me wrong, in, in my house, not every day is making magical memories, but you do want them to look back and go, oh yeah, we did do things as a family.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We weren't always, you know, just sitting there on our own phones.
Speaker A:So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenge because it's, you know, you do, you don't, you do have to model it.
Speaker A:And I, as you said, that's, it's one thing that I've had to consider myself as the amount of time and then I, you know, you have that at least on iPhones, it gives you that weekly usage amount and you know, some weeks you think my lands.
Speaker A:Now I listen to a lot of podcasts, so I think, well, maybe it's podcasts, but still no excuse.
Speaker A:Still no excuse.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, it's, it ends up being a lot of time and to see the trend, you know, I was able to go back and look at the trend of myself over the last few years and I would love to say it's decreasing, but it's incrementally increasing.
Speaker A:And I think that's probably demonstrates the dependency on, and you mentioned relationship, like a relationship with our device.
Speaker A:And that probably does speak to it.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, I think, yeah, we, we, we don't want to leave them behind and we spend a lot of time with them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think as well, like the research would show that over the last number of years, you know, the amount of time that children are spending online has increased year on year.
Speaker B:Also the amount of time that, or, sorry, the age that children have first accessed their own mobile phone has got younger and younger.
Speaker B:Isn't that really interesting?
Speaker B:So, you know, we are seeing that and also research would show that actually over the last number of years, you know, the the amount of self harm but eating disorder, mental health issues with children and young people is increasing.
Speaker B:I'm not saying let's just blame it all on phones, but we have been spending more time online.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And also I would say a lot of that content, that self harm content, that eating disorder content that is available readily on devices, especially on apps, likes of TikTok or Instagram, it is very easy to come across it.
Speaker B:Young people are maybe be coming across it without looking for it.
Speaker B:They're not searching for it, but it is coming up on their phones.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So to me that is a huge concern.
Speaker B:Even more reason to be talking to our children about it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so, so your, your, your, your wisdom and experience would be for parents to go ahead and have those conversations with kids.
Speaker A:That these are some things you might come across and engage in those conversations ahead of time.
Speaker A:Is, is that correct?
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker B:And I think it's also then comes down to, to the apps because for example the likes of TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, YouTube shorts, the way that is working, the algorithms are pushing that content often on children.
Speaker B:So they are coming across it.
Speaker B:Other apps like of WhatsApp and Snapchat, you know, they have their, also have their problems as well.
Speaker B:But usually they are using, being used to communicate.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So you know a lot of, I'm sure you've heard of the term doom scrolling but you know a lot of that scrolling apps, there's definitely research that has shown that's generally not fine to be positive on young people's mental well being.
Speaker B:And also we know a lot of that content is there.
Speaker B:So I would be thinking, you know, let's say a 10 year old wants TikTok or Instagram.
Speaker B:I would say not yet.
Speaker B:You know, and yeah, it's different when you're talking about a 15 or a 16 year old.
Speaker B:So you're looking at that age appropriately.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:For somebody that doom scrolling was a new phrase for them.
Speaker A:How would you define doom scrolling?
Speaker B:Yeah, well as far as I'm aware, it's just that you are looking at your phone and you know, you're maybe looking at, well for us as adults might be the news or that kind of stuff.
Speaker B:And you're just seeing more and more of the same stuff which is probably depressing or not necessarily happy news.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And actually then that can affect what, what mood you're in and it can affect how you feel about the world around you and how you feel even about yourself.
Speaker B:And I think it is important that to realize that the algorithms will will push the same stuff, you know, to you.
Speaker B:I remember a boy, not that long ago in one of the schools I was in, and he said to me that every time he looked at his phone, he saw a car crash.
Speaker B:And I was like, do you want to see a car crash?
Speaker B:And of course he said, no.
Speaker B:But obviously what's happened is, well, maybe he's interested in cars.
Speaker B:So he has looked his phone, he's seen a video.
Speaker B:He started to watch the video and then realized, oh, it's about a car crash.
Speaker B:It's too late because he has watched it for a few seconds.
Speaker B:He's getting more and more of that content.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:So there are things you can do in that situation.
Speaker B:If it is TikTok, and I don't use it myself, but as far as I know, you can put your thumb on the, on the video and say, don't show me this or I don't like this.
Speaker A:Okay, that's good to know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then if you like, I think you'd have to sort of, you know, uninstall the app up.
Speaker B:You could reinstall it.
Speaker B:It would reset the algorithms.
Speaker B:You know, there's things like that.
Speaker B:But I would often say to young people at workshops, you know, if you see something like that, you don't, like, put your phone down, walk away, get fresh air, go and do something else and then maybe think, is this really helpful for me?
Speaker B:Do I really want to be looking at this stuff all the time?
Speaker A:And especially is.
Speaker A:Especially in a Christian worldview.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Those are, those are.
Speaker A:There's enough challenging things in life, let alone sitting down and, and absorbing it that way too.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But it is.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:Yeah, I was just gonna say we know as well that, you know, whatever we, we see or hear, it affects us, you know, and we're thinking, is this, is this all going to be helpful for me as a Christian?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And, and for sure, our testimony.
Speaker A:So what, what are some things maybe that students can be self aware of?
Speaker A:You mentioned earlier, earlier about maybe their mood changing.
Speaker A:They could be aware of that and for parents to too.
Speaker A:Are there signs and symptoms you think that parents and maybe teachers and mentors should be aware of when they're noticing maybe some of the harmful impacts on, of, of on their students or their kids from social media and how do they navigate that?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it's really tricky because a lot of things that might, as you say, signs and symptoms might be things you'd be worried about.
Speaker B:You could say that's normal adolescent behavior.
Speaker B:Couldn't you being withdrawn, being moody, you know, being secretive with the phone.
Speaker B:These are all things, but obviously could be anything.
Speaker B:So it comes back to them having those conversations.
Speaker B:But yeah, it's tricky.
Speaker B:I would be concerned if they are spending a lot of time online and it might not just be phones, you know, it could be they could be using other devices as well to, to chat and communicate.
Speaker B:But, and again it comes back to, you know, who are you talking to?
Speaker B:And all of that there.
Speaker B:But it's.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's really tricky and maybe I think for myself, I know there's so much out there about body image and eating disorders and not just for girls, but it can affect girls more and boys can be affected too.
Speaker B:But if I was noticing anything about changing and eating habits or concern about weight and stuff, you know, I would be wanting to see what are they looking at on their phone.
Speaker B:I would be wanting to see that because that, you know, absolutely could be where that's coming from.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:From your research and from your, your experience, you mentioned a lot of time or a lot of time.
Speaker A:There are certain kind of like guidelines on how much is, is a, a good amount or acceptable amount of time to be online or is that, is that up to every person or any thoughts on that?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, it's really interesting because there used to be these guidelines.
Speaker B:I think it was the American Psychology Organization, I'm not quite sure, but they did have certain, you know, like I can't remember exactly what it was, but so many Rs according to the age group.
Speaker B:And more recently then they have experts have said actually forget that it's not about necessarily about quantity of screen time, it's about quality of screen time.
Speaker C:Oh wow.
Speaker B:Because obviously, you know, even young children could be watching an educational video, etc.
Speaker B:So that's what they would argue.
Speaker B:Now I do get that, you know, it's about what's on the screen that actually is more important than how long they're spending.
Speaker B:But at the same time my concern would be, well, yes, even if they're watching hours of educational videos, you know, what are they not doing, they're not moving and you know, doing other things that are scientifically proven to be good for their well being, like fresh air and exercise and you know, all those creative things and different skills and stuff.
Speaker A:So yeah, and the companies have that, you know, they're, they become astute at taking, you know, you talk about reels, things that become short and condensed.
Speaker A:Yeah, the amount that you could take in, in, in a short amount of time would be A lot.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, because they have it pared down.
Speaker A:It's the, you know, the high action, the thing to grab your attention.
Speaker A:Evidently, somewhere in my thing I watched a lion attack a something, some animal in Africa.
Speaker A:And I'm telling you, pretty much every time I get online, on YouTube or anywhere, there's a video of some lion attacking something, you know, I mean, it's, I'm like mind lands.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's, it comes up frequently.
Speaker A:But you're right, it's things that used to, maybe you would watch for an hour and a half.
Speaker A:Now it can get down to 15, 20 seconds and snippets of it and that's.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you think that can't be good for the concentration either, you know.
Speaker A:And then you have my lands, Sunday.
Speaker B:School teachers trying to entertain them for, educate them for, you know, 30 minutes and.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I've noticed it in my reading time.
Speaker A:You know, I used to be able to sit down and read maybe for 35 or 40 minutes in a stretch.
Speaker A:And now I, it takes after about 10, 15 minutes.
Speaker A:I know it's like I want to move on to do something else and I have to concentrate to stay in that mode of reading.
Speaker A:And like I said, I'm not saying it's causation with social media and Internet, but there's a correlation.
Speaker A:There's, there's definitely a correlation between the increase of that in, in my life and my, you know, decreasing attention span.
Speaker A:And so that's a, that's a challenge.
Speaker A:Deborah, you're the, you're the expert on this.
Speaker A:Is there a question I should have asked you or something that, that I haven't asked that you think would be vitally important before I, before I ask you to pray for us?
Speaker B:Oh, goodness, I'm not sure.
Speaker B:I think we've covered quite a lot.
Speaker B:Yeah, I'll probably come off the call and then I'll thought of other things that we didn't say, but nothing comes to mind right now.
Speaker A:When you close, when you close a meeting with or a conference or something you're presenting, what are the encouraging words that you share with students or parents, teachers?
Speaker A:There any words of encouragement for them is before you pray?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, I think sometimes I'm very aware of, you know, scaremongering people, you know, just for dramatic effect.
Speaker B:There's no point in doing that.
Speaker B:I think it's realistic that this is the world we live in.
Speaker B:These are the apps, whatever restrictions or whatever parents can put on sooner or later there's you know, it's going to be part of their child's world, if not already.
Speaker B:And there are so many positives and there are benefits, but we, yeah, we can definitely work to improve it.
Speaker B:There's lots of changes happening at the moment in the uk.
Speaker B:We have recent legislation for some people that won't go far enough.
Speaker B:There are definitely social media companies getting pressure on them to actually do something about particularly the harmful content.
Speaker B:And that's really interesting because they're often saying, oh well, you know, we didn't put the content there.
Speaker B:But of course they own the app, they have allowed it.
Speaker B:That's the whole point.
Speaker B:Anybody can put anything on there and they just can't police it.
Speaker B:So I do find as well to, to encourage folk that in the last maybe year or two, I am seeing more and more parents starting to say not yet.
Speaker B:And that is sort of UK wide, maybe, maybe.
Speaker B:I know Australia, for example, had banned social media for under 16s.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's quite recent, so definitely in other countries, in some states of America, you know, we've seen some movement.
Speaker B:I don't think my children will be giving their children mobile phones early on.
Speaker B:I actually think we're starting to see a change now.
Speaker B:It'll take maybe a generation, maybe more.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a whole culture that needs to change, isn't it?
Speaker B:So I hope, I hope that's.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:I hope I don't have to go into primary schools anymore, you know, but as I said, a lot of it is preventative education.
Speaker A:It has been a joy to have you and enjoy to learn from you.
Speaker A:Thank you for the impact you're making.
Speaker A:Thank you for the tools that you're giving both students and parents and teachers and mentors on this vitally important subject.
Speaker A:Will you pray for us today?
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker B:So let's pray.
Speaker B:Heavenly Father, just thinking about all these things that are both positive but also very negative about the honor online space and we just pray for your protection, Lord.
Speaker B:We think about all the parents, educators, carers, people who work with children, who will be listening and all the children and young people that they work with.
Speaker B:Please protect them, Lord.
Speaker B:Help them to be wise as they spend time online.
Speaker B:Help them to make the most of their devices that they use and help them to keep safe, Lord.
Speaker B:And just pray for parents as we try to, to work with this, Lord, we maybe didn't ask for this, but it's here and it's part of our lives.
Speaker B:And help us as we help our children and young people to be able to cope with the things that are not so good.
Speaker B:And we thank you, Lord, for this time and for this learning.
Speaker B:In Jesus name, amen.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker C:Sam.
