Elizabeth Vahey Smith on How Leaders can be Trauma Informed and Create Psychological Safety on Teams
This podcast episode centers on the pivotal role of psychological safety in leadership and team dynamics, as articulated by our esteemed guest, Elizabeth Vahey Smith. She shares how leaders can cultivate environments where team members feel secure, thereby enhancing collaboration and effectiveness. Throughout our discussion, we delve into the significance of trauma-informed approaches in leadership, emphasizing the need to understand individual backgrounds and emotional experiences. Elizabeth shares practical strategies that leaders can implement to foster psychological safety, ultimately allowing teams to thrive in their mission. We aim to equip our listeners with the insights necessary to navigate the complexities of leadership and create supportive spaces that facilitate growth and healing.
Takeaways:
- This podcast episode emphasizes the critical importance of psychological safety in leadership, which allows team members to express concerns without fear of repercussions.
- Leaders are encouraged to be trauma-informed, recognizing that past experiences can influence current behaviors and responses in the workplace.
- The conversation highlights practical strategies for leaders to foster an environment of trust and transparency, which significantly enhances team cohesion and performance.
- A key theme is the distinction between intention and impact, urging leaders to communicate effectively while being mindful of how their words may affect others emotionally.
Transcript
Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Speaker A:This podcast is all about providing clarity insight and encouragement for life and mission.
Speaker A:And my name is Aaron Santemeyer and I get to be your host today.
Speaker A:We get to sit down and have a return guest.
Speaker A:Elizabeth Vahey Smith will join us on the podcast again today where we just have a insightful conversation on how teams and specifically how leaders can create psychological safety and can be trauma informed so that we can be better leaders, that we can understand dynamics in the room.
Speaker A:She'll give us some practical tips, practical insights, and I really appreciate her approach.
Speaker A:Her desire is to help leaders navigate the landscape, understand sometimes what's going on in the room so that we can lead better and we can create a safe place for all.
Speaker A:And ultimately, you know, with our mission is we want to see the church planted and we have healthy teams where we're understanding emotions, understanding the feelings that are going on and maybe and considering people's past history and maybe something that they're bringing in or past experience and how that could be influencing them in today.
Speaker A:I think as my time, 20 some plus years in missions, recognizing that our family of origin, it really does have a huge impact on who we are and how we show up and a lot of times the things that we've experienced in the past, how they they inform and how they impact how we show up.
Speaker A:And I think this is just an insightful conversation that will help us grow as leaders and help us grow as team members so that we can create spaces where people feel safe to follow the call that God's placed on their life.
Speaker A:Do want to ask you to continue sending your questions for back channel with Foeth.
Speaker A:That's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him.
Speaker A:Do ask you to also to continue to subscribe to the podcast.
Speaker A:I know the podcasts I've subscribed to, they're the ones I listen to.
Speaker A:They show up on my feed, know where I'm going, know what I'm going to listen to throughout the week.
Speaker A:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker A:So here we go.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Speaker A:We have a returned guest.
Speaker A:Elizabeth.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker B:I'm excited to talk again with you.
Speaker A:Yes, me too.
Speaker A:So she is in Vietnam, I'm in West Virginia today in the miracles of technology.
Speaker A:And so I'm excited to jump into her new book book and the resources placing in our hands.
Speaker A:But before we do that, Elizabeth Will you share a little bit about yourself?
Speaker A:And then I have a lot of questions about trauma and leadership and looking forward to this.
Speaker A:So can you share about yourself before I start asking you a bunch of questions?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B: five years up until the year: Speaker B:And so in this space, I had the really unique opportun to cultivate a team culture, and I had experienced leadership done poorly.
Speaker B:And so I knew what I didn't want our team culture to look like, but really got to build it from the ground up using the education that I have in trauma informed care.
Speaker B:And so at TCK training, we've been able to create this really exciting thing that I've been privileged to be able to write a book about and now share with so many people.
Speaker B:And so that's kind of how I got into this space of trauma informed leadership.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I'm excited about it.
Speaker A:And before we hit record, what I shared with Elizabeth was I was so appreciative of this resource that she's produced.
Speaker A:You know, as a podcast host, I get a lot of requests.
Speaker A:Not a lot, you know, four or five a week from people that would like to be on the podcast and.
Speaker A:And sometimes the resources you don't know, she sent me a copy of it.
Speaker A:I got to read the book, and I'm excited to talk about this today because I think it, it, it helped me and it's continued to help me to understand as I lead and serve, how I can do that better.
Speaker A:So let's jump in.
Speaker A:So post traumatic wisdom, what is that and what is it not?
Speaker A:That's something that was all.
Speaker A:Majority of the concepts you share in the book are new for me.
Speaker A:So I got a lot of questions for you.
Speaker A:But post traumatic wisdom, what is it and what is it not?
Speaker B:So post traumatic wisdom are these life lessons that we learn after having gone through something really difficult.
Speaker B:So I have an example.
Speaker B:One of my clients recently in our leadership coaching session was sharing that she brought an issue to leadership, and she was saying it was a major pain point for her.
Speaker B:And her leadership responded by saying, well, that's your job.
Speaker B:And it felt very demoralizing and very discouraging for her to hear that.
Speaker B:And she walked away from that encounter with a couple.
Speaker B:One, a life lesson.
Speaker B:And that life lesson was, when I go to leadership, I shouldn't start with my pain point.
Speaker B:I should start with a potential solution, which is a very important life lesson.
Speaker B:But she also had some really Powerful post traumatic wisdom.
Speaker B:And from that, what she learned was when people on her team come to her and they start with the pain point, they start with a problem, they start with the complaints that she should kind of recognize that that could be a cry for help, that they're just not really well versed, well skilled in how to advocate for themselves.
Speaker B:And so as she was telling me this, she was having this visceral reaction, remembering how stuck and helpless she had felt in that original situation, which is what we see as that.
Speaker B:That trauma.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That it's still a impacting her to that degree.
Speaker B:But she gained so much wisdom out of that.
Speaker B:And that's the post traumatic wisdom is what we've learned because we've gone through a hard thing.
Speaker B:But what post traumatic wisdom is not, is a justification for what happened.
Speaker B:Like, we don't want to look at that leader and say, oh, wonderful.
Speaker B:Like, that was so great of her to do that, because look at how much was learned from that.
Speaker B:There are better ways to teach people than subjecting them to trauma.
Speaker B:And so I have found that God does beautiful things even in the hardest situations.
Speaker B:And that is what post traumatic wisdom is.
Speaker B:But it is not a justification for leaders to continue doing these things that can be experienced as really harmful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So question for you.
Speaker A:Trauma.
Speaker A:So somebody would.
Speaker A:Maybe they're listening in.
Speaker A:They're saying, how, when in your professional space, how do define trauma?
Speaker A:And so I should ask you that question earlier on.
Speaker A:How do you define trauma?
Speaker A:So somebody might listen to that and say, man, that was a disappointment.
Speaker A:The person was disappointed.
Speaker A:Their leader reacted that way.
Speaker A:But how do we begin to look at trauma from this leadership space?
Speaker B:Yeah, great question.
Speaker B:So a lot of people have this idea that trauma are big things.
Speaker B:They are war, they're natural disasters, they're violence.
Speaker B:And that is totally true.
Speaker B:And that was our initial understanding of trauma.
Speaker B:So after the Vietnam War, we started seeing this a lot in veterans.
Speaker B:And we said, oh my gosh, guys, this is trauma.
Speaker B:And we made this announcement to the public explaining what that was.
Speaker B:And so that's where everybody got this idea that trauma is the big things.
Speaker B:But this field is an emerging field.
Speaker B:And we started noticing that these same patterns of behavior that can look like PTSD are happening in things that don't count as these big T traumas.
Speaker B:They're happening in smaller things.
Speaker B:And the thing that I have found that is a trend through these experiences is there's a feeling of helplessness involved.
Speaker B:When someone feels helpless, it could start to impact the way they view the world.
Speaker B:It could rewire their brains so that those emotions of panic or danger pop up because of whatever cues happened.
Speaker B:And so for this person, she's remembering this event and her brain is bringing back those same feelings of helplessness and stuckness that she felt at that time.
Speaker B:And she had no control over it.
Speaker B:Her brain wired those things together.
Speaker B:She could not help that at all.
Speaker B:And in fact, this is how God designed our brains to work.
Speaker B:But usually like, ideally that would happen for things that are real threats, right?
Speaker B:Physical threats, but they, what we found is that psychological harm has the same impact on our brain as physical harm.
Speaker B:And so when something like this happened, it hurt her so deeply that it shakes her to even remember it.
Speaker B:And so what we see is that a lot of people actually have some really small things that have shaped them a lot and, and even have taught them certain things about the world.
Speaker B:And so now they believe things to be true because they had this one experience one time, and now they operate as if that's true.
Speaker B:And these are the things that I see sneaking into missions teams and then ending up causing a little bit of trouble.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:It's wisdom.
Speaker A:And that's what I'm excited about.
Speaker A:I thought it was great for, for you to share that because it's your goal and desire is to see leaders, missions, teams, to function in a healthy way and for leaders to lead better and to lead in a way that's, that's understanding and that's what I value this resource in many, many ways.
Speaker A:So, so what is a, what is a trauma informed leader?
Speaker A:What does that look like?
Speaker A:And because I think that's what your, the goal of this is for, for leaders to be able to understand this and walk in this.
Speaker A:So, so what is, what is a trauma informed leader?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So a trauma informed leader is somebody who kind of understands this background that, as I've just put in a nutshell, very briefly understands that when they are in the workplace, when somebody is having those elevated responses where they are disproportionately upset about something that we as leaders can tune in and recognize, there might be something deeper at work here.
Speaker B:Oftentimes what leaders do is they see these things, people getting really big emotions over little things, and they think, I am going to dominate this mutiny, I am going to assert my authority over this situation so that they will stop it.
Speaker B:Because that is not okay.
Speaker B:And it's a normal response.
Speaker B:It's totally an intuitive response when you have the authority to use that to, to help your team thrive, especially when someone is misbehaving.
Speaker B:But when we recognize that, that history might be because they feel the threat, they feel like they are in danger.
Speaker B:When leaders try to do the show of force with their authority, they affirm that irrational fear because the person who's having an elevated response, they think, oh my gosh, I'm not safe.
Speaker B:And so I'm going to act in ways that make me feel more safe by having these big emotions and by being loud.
Speaker B:Because that's what we do when we're scared, right?
Speaker B:We be loud.
Speaker B:And then leader comes in and says, that's not acceptable.
Speaker B:You can't do that.
Speaker B:And all of a sudden they think, I was right, I am in danger, I'm being attacked right now.
Speaker B:And what we see is this escalation of the situation and it's because a leader was trying to do what they thought was the right way to handle it.
Speaker B:But when we have that trauma informed viewpoint, then we are empowered to be able to handle the situation in a way that de.
Speaker B:Escalates it and sets our team up for success.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker A:And as a leader, I'll be honest, I've been in similar situations and I might have done exactly what you just said.
Speaker A:I think some of the challenges for me as a leader is sometimes I feel like I need to, to not squelch that, but kind of bring that, to calm that down because I have other people that I'm leading also and like the impact of that on that.
Speaker A:And so I think it's, it is a tension point to try.
Speaker A:It's not an excuse for it.
Speaker A:It's, I think you're sharing and you're going to share with us how we can de escalate and have conversations to, to create safety for everybody involved.
Speaker A:And so, and that's, that's one thing that I've struggled with honestly as a leader is trying to create safe places for everybody.
Speaker A:Specifically in times when somebody was, as you talked about, be big or their em are coming out and you're, you're trying to navigate that kind of on a stage.
Speaker A:So it can be challenging.
Speaker A:So, so you share six components of a trauma informed approach.
Speaker A:Can you share some of those and maybe do they overlap or they just kind of, hey, I do this, I do this, I do six steps and then I'm a trauma informed leader.
Speaker A:Or, or could you just share some of the components and how, how they can help us?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So these six principles of trauma informed approach are actually created by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:And so they are Designed for when your client has experienced trauma.
Speaker B:But these foundational principles can be applied to the workplace as well, with some subtle tweaks.
Speaker A:Okay, perfect.
Speaker B:So these are things like making sure that people feel safe, both physically and psychologically.
Speaker B:And so psychological safety means that people are allowed to speak up, including disagreeing with leadership, pushing back, making other suggestions, and nothing bad is going to happen to them if they do that.
Speaker B:They have that safety where they're not going to be punished or humiliated or made to feel small.
Speaker B:They can speak up and that they will be heard.
Speaker B:And that sense of feeling heard is going to elevate, I mean, just tremendously elevate the psychological safety of the place and the engagement that team members have in reaching our goals.
Speaker B:And we'll see that we're much more empowered to reach our goals when our employees are engaged like that because they feel safe.
Speaker A:Yeah, good.
Speaker B:Another one is trustworthiness and transparency.
Speaker B:And so really making sure that we're prioritizing their wellbeing, that they trust us to do that, that we are transparently communicating with them about the factors at play.
Speaker B:And as much as we are able to as leaders, sometimes there are things that are confidential that we're not allowed to share yet.
Speaker B:But as much as we are able to communicate, I'm working on this, or this is happening in the background, I'm not sure how it's going to play out yet.
Speaker B:I'll keep you guys informed.
Speaker B:As much as I'm able to, that's going to promote that sense of psychological safety.
Speaker B:Because when people felt like, feel like they're left in the dark, that can feel really scary for people.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:Any other ones?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Another one is empowerment and choice.
Speaker B:And so in this one, you know, I mentioned that a ripe setting for an experience of trauma is where people feel helpless.
Speaker B:And so the more that we can do to engage them in, in choice making and empower them to succeed in the workplace, that's going to help them thrive.
Speaker B:The other thing with empowerment and choice, and we'll probably talk about this a bit more, is that when we recognize that people have experienced trauma, sometimes leaders want them to start working on their healing journey right away.
Speaker B:And a lot of leaders, especially in the mission field, have that pastoral spirit and so are trying and motivated to nurture them to healing because they noticed something that needs to be healed.
Speaker B:And really recognizing that there, there is a difference between the role of a leader and the role of a pastor.
Speaker B:And giving your team members the choice on how they want to navigate their healing journey and empowering them with tools, but also letting them have those choices.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a good word.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:Any others?
Speaker B:Yes, there are three others.
Speaker B:So there's peer support and this is the idea that we're helping our team work together and really nurturing that community and team building aspect.
Speaker B:And so figuring out what can we do to drive them to engage more together and support each other.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker A:Well, we don't want to share them all.
Speaker A:We want people to buy the book so we won't share them all on the podcast.
Speaker A:So we don't want to give it all away now.
Speaker A:But I think what I value is these are things that I think for me as a leader that I can begin to think about, begin to process, to consider specifically as I walk into the situations.
Speaker A:And you shared.
Speaker A:You know, the majority of people listening to this podcast are serving in missions in somewhere.
Speaker A:And that empowerment and choice sometimes, at least I remember I got to Burkina Faso and got to Madagascar, then into Kenya.
Speaker A:Sometimes you don't know.
Speaker A:You don't know what you don't know.
Speaker A:And so you're already kind of in a place where you're.
Speaker A:At least I felt, I'll speak for myself.
Speaker A:I felt unstable.
Speaker A:And you're afraid to make the wrong choice.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And so it can be challenging.
Speaker A:I think in the context of missions and other cultures, trying to figure that all out.
Speaker A:But creating to being a leader that gives opportunities for people to succeed and give them these choices and empower them to succeed, I think is a man.
Speaker A:It's something I think we can all, all definitely, definitely grow in.
Speaker A:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I think another factor is that being on the missions field is so high stress that it can bring people to the place where they're using a lot of strategies that they would have used in traumatic experiences in the past because those were high stress moments.
Speaker B:Now they're operating in a high stress moment.
Speaker B:You're going to see a lot of those behaviors pulled forward into this space as well.
Speaker B:And so on top of trying to integrate into a new culture, you're also almost pulling skeletons out of the closet as a lot of this stuff comes up in the workspace.
Speaker B:It's a difficult space.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So do you think we're hypothesizing here?
Speaker A:Do you think that we're more informed now that these traumas happened in the past?
Speaker A:Say, you know, eight years ago when missionaries went to the field, there was trauma there and they just, there was just not a language and an understanding of it.
Speaker A:Or do you think there's been more trauma?
Speaker A:And we're kind.
Speaker A:And I know this is hypothetical.
Speaker A:I'm not asking for a.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:But what are your thoughts?
Speaker A:Because I think missional leaders, at least for me, people are coming to the field today.
Speaker A:And you realize, man, people have been through a lot.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, and just as you said that, man, that.
Speaker A:That resonated with me.
Speaker A:When you come to the field, all of a sudden you realize you're using strategies that help you get through those situations of past.
Speaker A:Maybe they're not.
Speaker A:It's not culturally appropriate, and the enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, if he can destabilize you.
Speaker A:So is there more trauma going on?
Speaker A:Are we more aware of it?
Speaker A:Is it yes.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yes, or no?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker B:Oh, that's such a great question.
Speaker B:I think one for sure.
Speaker B:We're definitely more aware of it.
Speaker B:I think in a rapidly globalizing world, we have a lot more human interaction than people in previous generations, where before people would grow up and live in their same hometown, they had a subset of people that they worked with.
Speaker B:And I think now we find that we change jobs a lot, and we meet new people in this, and there's high turnover.
Speaker B:And so there's a lot of human touch points.
Speaker B:And in all of those human touch points, there are potential for conflict to arise and for conflict to arise in a way that deeply affects people.
Speaker B:And so I could completely imagine that more trauma is happening now, but certainly we are more aware of it now.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I have worked with older missionaries before.
Speaker B:I know a lot of people are thinking, well, the younger generations are just more susceptible to trauma.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I've heard that a lot.
Speaker B:But I have also worked with those older missionaries who have shared stories of their childhood and their stories that make you think, oh, that was.
Speaker B:That was extremely traumatic for you.
Speaker B:And then they share that, like, oh, well, the lesson that I learned is whenever conflict is around, just keep your head down and plow forward.
Speaker B:And you're like, wow, that explains so much about how you show up in the workplace and avoid conflict.
Speaker B:Thank you for that backstory.
Speaker B:And while they would never would have called that trauma, those are the kinds of things that we're talking about here.
Speaker B:Whether you call it trauma or.
Speaker B:I know my mother is one person who.
Speaker B:She's like, I don't like calling it trauma.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:It's drama.
Speaker B:That's what it is.
Speaker B:It's drama.
Speaker B:And so, like, okay, yes, if you want to do Drama, informed leadership.
Speaker B:You absolutely can.
Speaker B:Yeah, but that's what we're talking about here is just the pervasive impact from these things that left people feeling helpless.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker A:And I do, I think if you sit down and listen, which I think that's one great opportunity of being a leader and hearing people's story, it does, it does make a lot of sense.
Speaker A:And people, you know, some of the early pioneer missionaries, I mean, they went, you know, they went through all kinds of things.
Speaker A:Maybe there wasn't a label for it.
Speaker A:At the same time, it impacted their life.
Speaker A:And honestly, if you sit down, as you said, and you hear their stories, they kind of return to those places and it's very obvious that, you know, that they were hurt.
Speaker A:And I think as a leader, it gives me more compassion and more empathy and more understanding rather than responding just to maybe certain actions of different people.
Speaker A:When you get to hear their story, man, like you said, it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker A:It gives you the ability to lead and serve them in a better way and give you empathy as you walk down that.
Speaker A:So a lot of people are listening in to this and they're thinking, hey, I just want to plant the church.
Speaker A:I just want to be in wherever I'm at in the world, and I want to plant the church.
Speaker A:And the trauma informed leader.
Speaker A:How does this, how does it impact me?
Speaker A:But one of the things I loved how you highlighted was when you're being a trauma informed leader, it does help move a team to accomplish a goal.
Speaker A:So can you share a little bit more about that?
Speaker A:That?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:What I have found is that in places where there is not psychological safety, in places where people are hear those whispers of their previous traumas telling them how to behave and to watch their back, and they're going to be in danger if they do these things.
Speaker B:They spend so much time trying to protect themselves.
Speaker B:They spend an ordinate amount of time in self protection.
Speaker B:And when we can establish psychological safety, they can divert their attention from self protection to driving home that mission.
Speaker B:And that's what we really want to achieve is getting them to a place where they know and they feel super confident.
Speaker B:My team has got my back, so I don't need to watch it myself.
Speaker B:Instead, I can risk being brave and just shooting for these big, huge goals because I know that if I fail, like that's okay.
Speaker B:My team is going to have me, they're going to support me.
Speaker B:And what we see then is this transition and skyrocketing across all of the numbers.
Speaker B:And the metrics and the bottom lines that our offices back home care about.
Speaker B:Productivity is achieved through this work that we're doing.
Speaker B:And, and you know that that's from a strictly numbers and leadership kind of perspective.
Speaker B:But on the other side of this is we're all part of the kingdom of God.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like his, his blessings and his promises and his community that offers transforming, transformational living is for all of us.
Speaker B:And so that ministering is to our teams as well as to those we were sent to serve.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a very, very good word.
Speaker A:And also a challenging one.
Speaker A:A challenging one.
Speaker A:And I love.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:We only have so much.
Speaker A:Well, this is my thought.
Speaker A:You only have so much hard drive space.
Speaker A:And so if your hard drive space is taken up with, as you said, trying to keep myself, trying to keep myself safe, the reality of it is there's not a whole lot else you can do as far as you're there to plant the church.
Speaker A:But if you're continually.
Speaker A:That's running in your head, you know, you only have so much hard drive space and if it's take that's taken up so much of it.
Speaker A:But if we can be trauma informed leaders, if we can understand this and also if we can be trauma informed team members, you know, I mean, I think if we can, this goes all the way around.
Speaker A:So it's not just this for leaders.
Speaker A:This is for everybody on the team.
Speaker A:It'll help us free some of that hard drive space so that we have more space to actually do what God's called us to do, where he, where he at has this.
Speaker A:So, yeah, love it.
Speaker A:So you, you share about curiosity led conversations.
Speaker A:What does this look like and sound like?
Speaker A:Because that kind of segues into my next question.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So a curiosity led conversation.
Speaker B:Oftentimes leaders feel like they understand what's happening.
Speaker B:It's your job to understand what's happening.
Speaker B:It's your job to have a plan to solve whatever issues present.
Speaker B:So we just feel ridiculously confident that we have done that job well.
Speaker B:And so oftentimes we walk into conversations assuming that we have all of the facts.
Speaker B:And that's often when we have to put our foot in our mouth.
Speaker B:And so as a curiosity led conversation, what we want to do is just start by asking great questions and getting more information and we might find out that we totally misread the situation.
Speaker B:We might find out that we were right about the situation.
Speaker B:But there are very important facts that change how we want to react to this situation.
Speaker B:There's so many times That I have started with a curiosity led conversation and internally was like, I'm really glad I did this because important information came out here.
Speaker B:But, but, but mo.
Speaker B:Most importantly, what it does is it allows our team members to feel heard, which I will probably talk about many times on this podcast because that is so, so important for psychological safety.
Speaker B:When they feel heard, that's going to help them keep them from feeling hopeless or helpless in the situation.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker A:And what I, what I value about this is because you maybe could say, well, hey, I want to create safety, so I'm never going to have hard conversation or heart to heart conversations.
Speaker A:If there's conflict, I'm just going to avoid it.
Speaker A:But that's not what you're, you give us a, you give us a tool here to say you can have those conversations, but begin with curiosity and you continue to have that conversation, but it gives you more information.
Speaker A:So you walked in and I can, this past week, my own, you know, I've, you know, had phone calls and zoom calls and thought I understood what was going on from your book was that, well, maybe I'll just ask a few questions before you jump into this.
Speaker A:And thankfully so I asked a few questions because, you know, but as leaders, at least for myself, when I'm tired, when I'm wore out and you know, I ask people to pray Psalms 32, 8 for me.
Speaker A:God, direct me in the way I should go.
Speaker A:Counsel me with your loving eyes upon me.
Speaker A:Because as a leader I do, I answer a lot of emails and make a lot of decisions and sometimes you get into fatigue and you begin to disconnect the dots that are.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:The dots are there.
Speaker A:You just connect them incorrectly.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, and there are some, you know, as a leader you do need to under recognize common themes and common patterns and you can still do that.
Speaker A:You're.
Speaker A:We're not saying that.
Speaker A:But what you, what I appreciate what you're saying is, is we begin with curiosity to make sure that, and understand and hear and before we begin to connect any more dots or, or maybe we can get the eraser out and erase the dots that we connected because we didn't have them connected in the right order.
Speaker A:So anyway, good stuff.
Speaker A:It's help.
Speaker A:It's helped me to ask good questions, but it's also empowered me to be able to have heart to heart conversations too.
Speaker A:And so rather than coming in, hey, we got to have a difficult conversation, asking some questions and gathering information and hearing and then honestly, I think it helps me to be More sensitive in the conversation rather than just trying to move on and get through it.
Speaker A:So, anyway, loved it.
Speaker A:So then you talk about medic conversations.
Speaker A:I've never.
Speaker A:This is very new for me.
Speaker A:So what are meta conversations and can you unpack it for us?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So a meta conversation is a conversation about the conversation.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:And so what we're doing is we're actually taking a step away from our current conversation.
Speaker B:We're doing a little sidebar, and we have a conversation about what's happening inside the conversation.
Speaker B:This is especially powerful if something weird happened where you.
Speaker B:You made a statement and they responded in a way that you were not expecting.
Speaker B:Maybe they got real defensive real fast, and you were like, oh, hey, actually, can we have a meta conversation?
Speaker B:Like a conversation about this conversation?
Speaker B:I said this, and what I meant was this, and I expected you to say this, but you did this other thing instead.
Speaker B:And I'm just wondering, what did you hear in the conversation?
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:By stepping out of the mainline conversation, we get some distance from it, and it's way easier to talk about that thing over there than it is to talk about this thing right here.
Speaker B:And so we're stepping out and we're doing this analysis.
Speaker B:We've got some distance from it now, and it invites them to think about one, to hear more about your intentions and what you expected them to do, but also to think about how are they showing up right now, what happened for them?
Speaker B:Because these trauma responses, they happen so fast because when the brain thinks that it is in danger, it is going to make a snap second decision that is faster than your thinking brain can compute in order to stay safe.
Speaker B:And that can look like getting real mad real fast because they think that they're in danger.
Speaker B:And that little break can really help reset, and it can solve miscommunication in real time.
Speaker B:And so it makes it a very powerful tool whenever anything goes sideways in a conversation.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, we're going to talk about sideways in a minute.
Speaker A:So, you know, one of the other things I've heard is I've talked with different leaders.
Speaker A:Is this the word trigger?
Speaker A:You know, the triggers out there, they feel like they're afraid.
Speaker A:Hey, everything that I say or do might be a trigger.
Speaker A:So how do I.
Speaker A:How do I say anything or do anything?
Speaker A:Because if it might trigger somebody, I think that's what the value of this meta conversation for me, it gave me language around it to say, you know what, we can have the conversations.
Speaker A:But if I see or feel or sense that somebody has Been triggered or it's upset that we can pull back from that, have a conversation about that, understand, hear from each other.
Speaker A:This curiosity led conversation too about what has just happened, happened.
Speaker A:And then it can be helped me be a better leader rather than being afraid to.
Speaker A:Because sometimes, you know, you might feel as a leader you got to walk on your tippy toes and you can't, you know, you're afraid to say anything because it could trigger upset somebody or, you know, you don't.
Speaker A:If you don't know their traumas that they have been through, you can unknowingly walk in or say something that's in.
Speaker A:And I don't think there's any leaders that I know that are trying to up, you know, make people mad and upset and you know, but at the same time you, you walk in that.
Speaker A:So I love this meta conversations.
Speaker A:It helps me to know I can pull back, ask about the emotions that have taken place, seek to understand and then re.
Speaker A:Engage with the conversation.
Speaker A:Is that, does that, Am I given, is that a fair idea of what you're sharing about meta conversations?
Speaker B:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker B:And I love how you tied that in to the disconnect between like, I didn't mean to trigger you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I have another tool that I recommend for that, which I call the integration of intention and impact.
Speaker B:Where it is recognizing what my intentions are.
Speaker B:And my intentions are good because I'm a good person.
Speaker B:I love the Lord and I'm trying to make good decisions, doing the best that I can.
Speaker B:But sometimes I found, and maybe you found this too, Aaron, that, but sometimes I do things out of really good intentions and they hurt someone.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, and then we have this friction of I, I know I've been in the situation where that person has told me that I was wrong to do what I did.
Speaker B:And I, I'm pretty confident that I was not wrong to do what I did because there was nothing wrong with what I did.
Speaker B:I did it out of really good intentions.
Speaker B:And, and what leaders can really hone in on, hone in on here is that there is a difference between your intention and your impact.
Speaker B:And that's normal.
Speaker B:And that doesn't mean that you are wrong.
Speaker B:And that also doesn't mean that they are wrong.
Speaker B:But when we become aware of this gap, what we want to do is say, I am so sorry.
Speaker B:It was not my intention to make you feel that way.
Speaker B:I see that it did.
Speaker B:Can you tell me how I can achieve my intention without causing you that pain?
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:And, and then when we have these triggers where like it's not their fault that they're triggered by that.
Speaker B:It's not their fault.
Speaker B:But we can say, okay, so what, what should I say instead?
Speaker B:If that phrase triggered you, what can I say instead so that I can, I can do my good intentions and you actually feel those good intentions like I meant them.
Speaker B:And it just gets us on the same page to be able to navigate around those triggers and get back to achieving our goals.
Speaker A:That's good, good, good word.
Speaker A:Going to go back a little bit and ask a question.
Speaker A:You talk also about in this conversation, separating work from self and the importance of when we have these.
Speaker A:And that's one of, one of the challenges.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm not saying missions is so unique, but it is in some ways.
Speaker A:I mean, your life is so intertwined.
Speaker A:You know, my dad always gives me.
Speaker A:He gives me, well, frequently gives me a hard time.
Speaker A:He's like, you're on the phone all the time.
Speaker A:And you know, he worked at the railroad, right?
Speaker A:So it was seven, you know, seven went in and seven and he left at 3:30.
Speaker A:And that was work.
Speaker A:And I'm very grateful for him providing for our family.
Speaker A:But missions, everything is integrated.
Speaker A:It's intertwined.
Speaker A:It's like spaghetti, you know, it's all, all there.
Speaker A:But you share about the importance of separating work from self.
Speaker A:Could you share just a little bit about that?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And when I, when I talk about work in this context, I don't even necessarily mean the job, right?
Speaker B:I. I mean the things that we produce, the things that we make, the decisions that we.
Speaker B:Even the decisions that we make a lot of times.
Speaker B:Well, first off, you have this identity, this core identity, who you are as a person.
Speaker B:And then we have the things that we make, right?
Speaker B:And a lot of people conflate these two and they are like this thing that I made, I made myself.
Speaker B:And therefore this is an extension of me.
Speaker B:And so if you're going to criticize this, then you're criticizing me as a person.
Speaker B:And that's not healthy because those two things are different.
Speaker B:And so what we want to achieve as leaders is first to recognize that because sometimes we do this to ourselves.
Speaker B:We maybe conflate the idea that my decisions are identical with my identity.
Speaker B:And I think that they are very separate.
Speaker B:You made a decision based off of a hundred different external factors that had nothing to do with your identity.
Speaker B:Also your identity, that was, that was one of the internal factors.
Speaker B:But there were so many other things that played into that.
Speaker B:And so what I would like for us to be able to do is think about then.
Speaker B:Oh my gosh.
Speaker B:You can edit these, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can hear you.
Speaker A:You're good?
Speaker B:Okay, good.
Speaker B:I don't know what just happened there.
Speaker B:And I lost my train of thought.
Speaker B:Oh my gosh.
Speaker B:What was I just talking about?
Speaker A:You were talking about that even as leaders we make decisions.
Speaker A:And those decisions are, they're not, they're not who we are, they're not ourself.
Speaker A:And the differentiation between the two, I can ask.
Speaker A:You want me to start all over again?
Speaker A:Just ask you the, the question about how do we.
Speaker A:How do people separate work from self?
Speaker A:And we can start there and I'll just edit that part about.
Speaker A:Is that, does that help you or not help.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker A:Listen, I, I sit on both sides of this mic, so I understand exactly where you're at.
Speaker A:So not a problem at all.
Speaker A:So one of the things I wanted to go back and ask you was this idea and the importance of, of, of in helping people separate work from self and how we.
Speaker A:Why that's.
Speaker A:What are some reasons that's so important when we think about being a trauma informed leader, separating work from self.
Speaker A:Could you share some more about that?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:A lot of times people get this idea that their identity is the same thing as the work that they produce or even the choices that they make, the decisions that they, they make.
Speaker B:And what I have found is that it's important to be able to separate those out because you have this sense of self, you have this core identity, who you actually are.
Speaker B:And then you have the things that you do out of that.
Speaker B:Now those things that you do out of that can be impacted by all sorts of external things.
Speaker B:So it's not just your identity, it's who you are affected by all of the other things that are going on in the world.
Speaker B:And so if somebody has written a paper and that paper has mistakes in it, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are a mistake.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That they're a sloppy person.
Speaker B:They don't have attention to detail, but rather it means that something came up in that.
Speaker B:And so as leaders, it can be really helpful for us to one, be really aware that people do conflate their self and their work.
Speaker B:And so people do often feel like if you're going to criticize something that I made, you are criticizing me as a person.
Speaker B:And so for us as leaders to one, recognize that there's a difference and then two, to be very intentional to criticize their or to critique better than Criticize, to critique their work without making an attack on their person and to be very intentional about this, especially if people do conflate those things.
Speaker B:What I like to do is affirm someone's identity as I critique their work.
Speaker B:And so that could be something like saying I believe in your ability to do this, but I see that it's been really challenging for you.
Speaker B:What are the obstacles that you're facing right now?
Speaker B:And in that I have affirmed the person, I believe in them.
Speaker B:That's not a question.
Speaker B:Rather I'm thinking about all of those external things that are happening and wondering which one is impeding them right now.
Speaker B:And it gives us a lot of distance too, where instead like talking about me and my failings is really hard.
Speaker B:But if you want to talk about that project that I worked on and those, those failings, like that's a little bit easier to do.
Speaker B:And so it helps people feel safer, which helps them solve the problems and move us forward to our goal.
Speaker A:It's true.
Speaker A:You know, I think the challenge of, at least for me, my personality is I've always been rewarded for having the right answers and performing well.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And so that is, it is.
Speaker A:I understand that logically and mentally that my work is not myself.
Speaker A:And I know my identity is in Christ.
Speaker A:I know that logically.
Speaker A:But there are points in time, throughout my life I've been rewarded for this and this and this and in, in genuine.
Speaker A:It was not, hey Aaron, you're you, you love Jesus and, and you know, you love your family and hey, you know we're going to pat you on the back.
Speaker A:And so it, there it is a challenge.
Speaker A:And I would be lying to say it's not.
Speaker A:I know it logically, I know it mentally and I think I know it emotionally.
Speaker A:At the same time.
Speaker A:Just a lot of my life I, I sometimes say I'm not much better than a dog.
Speaker A:You know, I do what I've been rewarded were to do and that's to perform well.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so when you don't perform well or you don't meet the expectations, then it's, it's, it's hard to.
Speaker A:Anyway, so you're not my.
Speaker A:We're not going into a counseling session today.
Speaker A:That's probably another counseling session.
Speaker A:But anyway.
Speaker A:But it's a reality and I think I, I would not think that I'm solely unique.
Speaker A:I think majority of leaders have been rewarded because they've been successful and they continue to lead, lead, lead.
Speaker A:And then sometimes this differentation can be, can be a Challenge.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:All right, got two more questions for you.
Speaker A:One is you talked earlier about when things have went sideways.
Speaker A:How does a leader recognize that things.
Speaker A:We might recognize that things went sideways, but then be able to explore that in a way for the reasons that went sideways.
Speaker A:And then how do we prevent or prevent or be wiser and learn from that experience so things don't continue to go sideways further and further?
Speaker B:Yeah, those are great questions.
Speaker B:So first, how do we know that something goes sideways?
Speaker B:Usually leaders know this, this feels like friction, right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:You're like, I told you to do something and that didn't get done like that.
Speaker B:We, we see it very easily.
Speaker B:That's not the part that's hard.
Speaker B:It looks like friction.
Speaker B:The reasons why can sometimes be tricky.
Speaker B:What I found is they fall into four major categories.
Speaker B:One is insufficient training.
Speaker B:Okay, your, your person needs more training, whether that's in how to do their job or whether that's in social skills.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:The next is insufficient support.
Speaker B:They need more structure or systems to really support them in accomplishing it.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker B:One is insufficient ability.
Speaker B:Not everybody has the ability to do every job.
Speaker B:And so making sure that they are able to do the job that they are to able in the slot to do that has been assigned to them.
Speaker B:And then the last one that I often see is trauma responses.
Speaker B:And where trauma responses are causing something to go sideways because they're riling up in defensiveness, trying to protect themselves from danger rather than doing the work that was given to them.
Speaker B:So what we do when we see these things is start with those curiosity led conversations to try to diagnose which one is it.
Speaker B:And when we see that it's a lack of training, we provide more training.
Speaker B:And if there's a systemic issue where everybody who's coming through is having this training gap, then we go try to find systemic solutions and we get those into place.
Speaker B:And that's basically what we do with all of them.
Speaker B:Figure out, do they need more support and what does that look like and does it need to be systemic?
Speaker B:And if they have a lack of ability, is there a different place that they would thrive?
Speaker B:And is there something wrong with the recruitment process that people are getting in the wrong space?
Speaker B:And then with trauma responses, it is, what do you need to feel safe on this team?
Speaker B:And is that something that we can reasonably provide and what does that look like?
Speaker B:And so trying to find some small things that can be done to help set people up for success.
Speaker B:And what I have found is that sometimes it is as small as not using a certain Key phrase.
Speaker B:And while a lot of people can say, okay, but listen, they.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They just need to heal from that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It is way easier for me to change a key phrase that I'm using than for someone to heal from their trauma.
Speaker B:And while I think that, yes, they should certainly try to work on this trauma healing because there's such freedom in healing, my goal as a leader is to help my team reach their goals.
Speaker B:And if I can change a phrase in order to achieve that, then.
Speaker B:Then let me do that and remove that stumbling block.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:I got one last question for you, and then I'm going to ask you.
Speaker A:Pray for us.
Speaker A:You in this pro.
Speaker A:I'm probably not giving you enough space to unpack this completely, but one thing it jumped out to me was the.
Speaker A:The reality that sometimes it's a trauma or some.
Speaker A:Or a personality.
Speaker A:And trying for leaders to try to differentiate between if something is really a trauma or it's a personality.
Speaker A:And can you just share a little bit about that and then pray for us?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So I think that we are created in the image of God, and I think that all of these different personalities that we have are expressions of Him.
Speaker B:And I think that they.
Speaker B:Every personality can show up in ways that are edifying to their community and to the body.
Speaker B:And so sometimes we see things that are going sideways and we might want to say, oh, well, that's just their personality.
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:I don't believe that.
Speaker B:I don't believe that that's just their personality, because I know that.
Speaker B:That God is perfect.
Speaker B:And so what I've seen way more often when I've dug into these things is that.
Speaker B:No, no, that's their trauma response.
Speaker B:And maybe that personality is more susceptible to those sorts of traumas.
Speaker B:So that's actually a normal thing for that personality to have experienced.
Speaker B:But those are wounds that have happened because of messages that they were susceptible to.
Speaker B:And now in order to really unlock some things, they need to go through that heal, healing work.
Speaker B:And it is not beyond them, but that is.
Speaker B:That is an opportunity for them to heal into that and to grow and become more like Christ.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Good work.
Speaker A:Well, it's been an honor to have you on the podcast to learn from you.
Speaker A:We'll put links in the show notes so people can find the resources there.
Speaker A:Will you pray for us today?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Dear Lord, thank you so much for this opportunity for me to come and share this.
Speaker B:And thank you so much for all of the listeners who have gotten the opportunity to be here right now.
Speaker B:And I am so thankful for the ways that I know you work in the hearts of man and that you will work through these conversations.
Speaker B:And I don't know where everyone is, whether they're someone who's been hurt by leadership.
Speaker B:And so it's just validating to know that leadership can be done differently or if it's leaders who really want to grow and thrive and glorify you in all that they do.
Speaker B:And may the conversations here have unlocked some potential for them to be able to step more into that, to be able to refine the ways that they do leadership, to be more compassionate to their teams, and to promote the healing work that you have always been so passionate about.
Speaker B:Thank you, God, for caring for our problems, both the big ones and the ones that are so small they hardly feel like they should be this important.
Speaker B:But you.
Speaker B:You know how valuable the small things are, how important they are.
Speaker B:And so thank you so much for, for the ways that you love us, for the ways that you care for us, and for the ways that you invite us to be the hands, hands and feet in your work.
Speaker B:And may we be that for each other.
Speaker B:In Jesus name, amen.
Speaker A:Amen.
