Mark Sayers on From Platforms to Pillars / Back Channel with Foth
This episode of the podcast explores the intricate dynamics of communication and influence within diverse contexts, as articulated by Dick Foth . Foth highlights the importance of understanding one's audience prior to engagement, emphasizing a thorough preparatory process that encompasses research, inquiry, and a genuine curiosity about the unique attributes of the audience in question. He elaborates on the contemporary reliance on digital platforms to ascertain information about potential speaking engagements, cautioning that while such resources provide insights, they may not capture the complete essence of the group. This segment serves not only to highlight the necessity of audience awareness but also to underscore the significance of tailoring messages to resonate authentically with the listeners' experiences and values. Foth's reflections prompt listeners to reconsider the metrics of success and effectiveness in their respective fields, advocating for a shift from superficial engagement to deeper relational connections.
Transitioning into the conversation with Mark Sayers, the dialogue shifts toward the conceptual frameworks of 'platforms' versus 'pillars.' Sayers articulates a critical examination of how contemporary culture has increasingly valorized personal platforms as vehicles for influence, often prioritizing image and individualism over communal values and wisdom. Sayers argues that this platform-oriented mindset, exacerbated by social media dynamics, cultivates a culture of competition, fragility, and superficiality, challenging the very foundations of community and relational integrity. He contrasts this with the notion of 'pillars,' which represent stability, resilience, and the vital role of individuals who foster genuine connections and support the communal fabric. The exploration of this dichotomy not only invites reflection on personal motivations and aspirations but also encourages a re-evaluation of how communities can celebrate and cultivate pillars of strength rather than merely platforms of visibility.
The dialogue culminates in a poignant reflection on the implications of these concepts for individuals engaged in mission work, particularly in the context of global cultures influenced by rapidly changing dynamics. As Sayers articulates, the intersection of local and global cultural shifts necessitates a nuanced understanding of how to navigate these changes with integrity and intentionality. The call to action is clear: individuals must aspire to be pillars within their communities, contributing to a more profound sense of belonging and purpose, while also exercising discernment in their engagement with platforms. This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the enduring value of character, community, and humility in a world increasingly captivated by performance and visibility.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:So excited to have our friend of the podcast, Dick Foth on another session of Back Channel with Foe.
Speaker B:And then we're going to jump into our interview with Mark Sayers where we talk about platforms to pillars.
Speaker B:Dick, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker C:Thanks much.
Speaker C:Glad to be here, Dick.
Speaker B:Looking forward to asking you a few more questions today.
Speaker B:So, first question, listener sent in says you speak and have spoken in different contexts to different groups.
Speaker B:How do you learn about who you are sharing with before you stand in front of them?
Speaker B:Any questions you ask?
Speaker B:Any questions you ask.
Speaker C:Well, in this day and age, one of the ways you know, the big one is this thing called Google.
Speaker C:Half of what you read about that group will be right.
Speaker C:You just have to figure out which half it is.
Speaker C:No, I think let's say you're invited to the missions agency of the first Church of what's happening now or whatever, whatever it is, whatever you can't find out online about what makes them tick.
Speaker C:Okay, what, what makes this group different?
Speaker C:Why is, how is whatever the mission agency?
Speaker C:Just pick one of the scores.
Speaker C:How are they different from each other if they are and if they're, if their people have written things, reading their writings?
Speaker C:I don't, I don't know that you can count much necessarily on what others might say.
Speaker C:Unless there's somebody that you know who has worked with that group.
Speaker C:Then you call them and say, tell me the motif that you find.
Speaker C:What's the ambiance?
Speaker C:Or as I would like to put it, what are their guidelines and first things?
Speaker C:For example, if I'm asked to speak a Rotary, you know, a civic organization, you can go online and find out what their four or five things are and have that as a context.
Speaker C:Ruth and I recently were invited to speak to Mops, mother of preschool children.
Speaker C:And you can imagine I held the notes and Ruth spoke, which is a.
Speaker C:And but they, they wanted to know, you know, how do you stay married for 62 years?
Speaker C:And here, here you have oftentimes moms who are busy changing diapers and figuring out what to have for dinner, even if they're not stay at home moms.
Speaker C:You know, a lot of younger people, they've got two full time jobs, if you will.
Speaker C:But I think, I think that discovery process is, is important.
Speaker C:And recently I was invited to go and sit with a group of a large aerospace company to talk to their vice presidents about how do you build relationships.
Speaker C:Because when you're in a business environment, oftentimes that's not where people go.
Speaker C:Now it's, it's becoming More common.
Speaker C:But so I just, I just read about them.
Speaker C:I found out about as much as I could about where they came from and how they started and their history and all of that.
Speaker C:And if you can speak, if you can have a touch point with that, then that helps when you're speaking to them.
Speaker B:Good stuff.
Speaker B:Well, you get to speak in diverse places.
Speaker B:As the listener said, if you're speaking to mops, aerospace engineers and churches, that's a broad group of people.
Speaker A:Dick.
Speaker B:Their second question, actually this was a different listener said, who are some of the communicators and pastors you have learned from and some lessons you have learned from them?
Speaker C:It's an interesting list because when I got this question, I actually wrote down three or four names.
Speaker C:Let me just start with my father in law.
Speaker C:I married Ruth when she and I were.
Speaker C:She was 20 and I was 21.
Speaker C:And later on after I went to grad school at Wheaton, I worked with him for a while and then I wanted to go into missions work overseas.
Speaker C:But from our background, you have to be a lead pastor and all that before you go.
Speaker C:And I'm 23.
Speaker C:Nobody wants a lead pastor's 23 unless you're a college kid.
Speaker C:So we went to a college group, started church plant in their university.
Speaker C:But he said this to me when I said, I feel like I'm supposed to do this and I've only been with him 15 months.
Speaker C:And he said both, he always called me, he said both, here's, here's the deal.
Speaker C:You're going to turn around two or three times, be an old man with white hair.
Speaker C:So I'm there.
Speaker C:And he said, and if you're going to be in pastoral work, you need a spirit that's sensitive to God and a height as tough as leather.
Speaker C:And the third thing he said, in dealing with people, never, never back somebody into corner with no way out.
Speaker C:Because if you do that, there's only one way to come out and that's fighting.
Speaker C:We don't need any more of that.
Speaker C:Now that's personal communication.
Speaker C:That's not somebody speaking from a.
Speaker C:Sure, my podium, but, but another pastor friend, 16, 17 years my senior when I was this young guy at the University of Illinois trying to do a church plan.
Speaker C:You know, it was back in the day when you spoke three times a week on different subjects, right?
Speaker C:It was before your.
Speaker C:And you know, and you're working like crazy and you got small kids in.
Speaker C:And I said, how do you do that?
Speaker C:And Alan Groff was his name.
Speaker C:And Alan said, nick, here's the deal when you speak three times a week like this, it's the equivalent of writing eight or nine novels a year.
Speaker C:He grinned at me and said, ain't nobody writes eight or nine good novels.
Speaker C:But his style and, and I came from a stylistic kind of speaking that was pretty enthusiastic, revivalistic and, and, and he was conversational and that, that helped me somebody that had a chance to teach a master's class in homiletics at a university just when Covid started.
Speaker C: e Prayer breakfast message in: Speaker C:Randall Wallace was the, was the producer writer for Braveheart and we were soldiers and so forth.
Speaker C:And he, he spoke, he was, he was funny, deadly serious, connected with the audience, all of those things.
Speaker C: to National Prayer Breakfast: Speaker C:It's sort of a master class in how you communicate.
Speaker C:Another person for those who speak regularly would be Fred Craddock.
Speaker C:Fred Craddock is a southeastern storyteller.
Speaker C:So an old Southern Scots storyteller.
Speaker C:I love storytellers.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I think United Method, I think he was in charge of harmonics or something at Emory University or something back in the day.
Speaker C:And then one other person who's a writer but also a speaker, he's from Alabama.
Speaker C:Another one of those Scott's Irish storytellers.
Speaker C:His name is Rick Bragg and Rick Bragg writes stories about his family.
Speaker C:He, I think he's retired now as a journalism professor at the University of Alabama.
Speaker C:But he won the Pulitzer Prize when he was at the New York Times.
Speaker C:And those are some people that I listened to and I listened to them over and over again.
Speaker C:You can go online and put in Fred Craddock and see some of his speaking and hear it.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Wow, that's interesting.
Speaker B:You, you gave me.
Speaker B:Now I've heard about your, your father in law but the other ones I've never, I've never heard of any of those gentlemen.
Speaker B:So I'm looking forward to.
Speaker C:Those are my secret friends that I don't share about about speaking is that, you know, some of us who speak regularly are sort of one dish people, others are buffet people.
Speaker C:And I've sort of landed on one thought illustrated four or five different ways as opposed to several thoughts.
Speaker C:And both are valid.
Speaker C:You know, it's not that one's great, the other is not.
Speaker C:But anyway, that's all good.
Speaker B:Good word.
Speaker B:Good word.
Speaker B:Nick, it's always joy to have you on back channel with foth.
Speaker B:We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview With Mark Sayers.
Speaker B:Well there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker B:So here we foreign so excited to have a return guest with us today on the podcast.
Speaker B:Mark, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker A:Fantastic to be back.
Speaker B:Mark.
Speaker B:We have a connection from Australia to middle of the United States.
Speaker B:But we've I had you on the podcast.
Speaker B:We talked about non anxious presence and had I was just actually in a meeting last week and people were talking about that interview and how much your book and your writings have impacted them.
Speaker B:And so thank you for that.
Speaker B:And so we have the opportunity today to look at platforms to pillars.
Speaker B:But before we jump into that, will you share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you questions about platforms and pillars and.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So yeah, live in Melbourne, Australia and I'm married to Trudy and I have three kids.
Speaker A:So I have Grace his final year of high school and then I have twin boys who are 14 and I past a church here in Melbourne called Red Church.
Speaker A:And yeah, so that's the vast majority of my life.
Speaker A:And then the other thing I do is, you know, talk about culture and the intersection of faith and culture and leadership and renewal and all these things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you must be a avid reader because I look behind you, there's a lot of books back there.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker B:You do a lot of reading.
Speaker B:Do a lot of reading.
Speaker B:So today we're just going to jump into it on platforms to pillars, Trading the burden of performance for the freedom of God's presence.
Speaker B:And so just the title challenged me.
Speaker B:So what is a platform and a platform society?
Speaker B: ing that we're just seeing in: Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I noticed maybe a few years ago that the way that people were talking about leadership had changed.
Speaker A:And previously to be a leader, it was an overflow of something perhaps in your character.
Speaker A:It could be that you're very respected in a particular community or you know, it could be that you're very skilled at something or have talent in something and or you worked your way to the top of an organization.
Speaker A:And I noticed that people were using this term platform to talk about influence.
Speaker A:And it was really interesting because you know that word has been around for a while, but if you look at Google has a little search engine you can put in, it's called the Ngram Reader, where you can see how the use of words throughout history have increased or decreased.
Speaker A:And so there's this huge uptick in the last 10 years of the word Platform.
Speaker A:And a lot of that also is around this idea that digital platforms, social media, YouTube, these things can actually almost fast track our influence.
Speaker A:So, you know, there's a few books floating around out there which are basically like, well, if you want to influence and you want to lead, you now need to build a platform.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:And previously, you know, as I said, there were overflows of different things, but now it's almost like a short shortcut to influence.
Speaker A:And, and I noticed as well, talking to a number, I had this really.
Speaker A:I remember talking to a sort of pastor who led a church and he had a, a ministry and he just made this comment one day, he just said something like, oh, it's really weird.
Speaker A:Now I realize that there's people out there in his community who, who literally just have a blog or a YouTube channel who have more influence than him, even though he's atop these organizations because of platform.
Speaker A:So it was that idea alongside the way I just began to see how everything in the world across the planet is being shaped and reshaped by digital platforms.
Speaker A:So these big media companies that are new kinds of companies, you know, meta, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, they're not just things that are influencing the culture the way we spoke about them seven years ago, they are major players on the geopolitical global stage now and shaping everything from presidential prime ministerships to, to literally our average lives.
Speaker A:And maybe you're thinking you want your kid not on, not on the screens as much.
Speaker A:So just those two things came together in this, in this book.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so true.
Speaker B:You know, I think it's probably been about six or seven years ago I began people building a platform.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You have a website, you do these things.
Speaker B:It's kind of, as you said, it's a fast track.
Speaker B:And how that word I always platform to me up until that point was that's where the pastor was.
Speaker B:He was up on the platform at church.
Speaker B:You know, I mean that was the way I knew the word.
Speaker B:And, and you.
Speaker B:That digital platform gives us that option.
Speaker B:So, so the idea of you, you talk about a new kind of individual who has emerged with this self centeredness and at the same time a pain that maybe can be impacted by this platform society.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I sort of thought, okay, where did this come from?
Speaker A:So I dug into the history and in many ways you can trace this idea of a platform.
Speaker A:A platform is an architectural structure that just as you said, then gives a speaker prominence.
Speaker A:So yeah, we have platforms in churches, but you also have them in certain town halls or schools.
Speaker A:And that goes all the way back to ancient Greece, where the idea of the stage was created.
Speaker A:And the stage was originally created for public speakers.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So ancient Greece was a place of philosophy and the arguing of ideas.
Speaker A:So they just realized that if we create this platform, more people can hear, but also what it does is it gives a sense of meaning or extra meaning and importance to that speaker.
Speaker A:So that was really interesting, but I thought, I'm going to go back further.
Speaker A:So I went back further and I realized the first platforms, as I discovered them, actually you can go back to ancient Egypt, where the king would be on what's called a dais.
Speaker A:So pharaoh was on a dais.
Speaker A:So a dais is a stage, but it's a royal stage.
Speaker A:So, for example, when King Charles was coronated, he was on a throne on a dais.
Speaker A:So it's a physical way of saying this person is more important than other people.
Speaker A:And you can even trace that back interestingly.
Speaker A:And I sort of is one of those moments you're researching and you find something, you're like, oh, my goodness.
Speaker A:And the ancient one of the ancient Egyptian creation stories has some parallels to story in Genesis in that you have a formless sea, but then there's this.
Speaker A:This Earth that comes up, and the first sort of God man, which Pharaoh saw himself coming from was elevated by that.
Speaker A:That land.
Speaker A:And so the pyramids were their symbol of that, which I found fascinating.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's this idea that kings, queens, emperors, pharaohs, whatever, would have this elevation.
Speaker A:But what social media has done is said you can all be like kings and qu.
Speaker A:And it's really interesting the more so it's almost like it's intensified individualism.
Speaker A:You know, a lot of the idea behind social media platforms came about when they were trying to solve, in the 90s, the very sort of real consequence of individualism and people losing community.
Speaker A:So they thought, well, if we can just connect everyone online, that will, you know, allow you to still do what you want to do.
Speaker A:But you can, you know, if you haven't got any friends in the community, because you live a very individualistic life, you can connect with others who may be into your interests.
Speaker A:But I think really what that's done is if everyone's on a platform, no one's on a platform.
Speaker A:If it's all about platforms, you're always competing.
Speaker A:If it's all about platforms, it's very much about image, and image and identity become huge.
Speaker A:And in a sense, it's disconnected us even more and made us more fragile and vulnerable.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:And so, so true.
Speaker B:You know, majority of people listening to this podcast are missionary servant around the world.
Speaker B:And that reality of loneliness, we're probably connected more than we ever have.
Speaker B:We can call family, we can call friends, you can stay up to date.
Speaker B:At the same time, loneliness is a reality whether you're serving as a family unit or whether you're serving solo.
Speaker B:That just the reality.
Speaker B:You would think we'd be more connected, but we're connected.
Speaker B:In superficial ways maybe, but not in the things that give us that real sense of purpose and meaning in life.
Speaker B:So one of the other things I took quote, was this idea that contemporary global culture, and you said, spread by the Internet entertainment, prefers novelty over wisdom, individualism to building communities and irreverence to respect.
Speaker B:So how can that global culture impact the church and also missional communities?
Speaker B:So we have, like I said, there's missionaries serving around the world trying to plant the church, we're trying to establish the church and yeah, in global communities.
Speaker B:But how can those changes with media and the Internet entertainment trying to prefer novelty over wisdom, individualism over the building community, and irreverence over to respect.
Speaker B:How can that impact the church and global workers?
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I think that something's really what the Internet's done and social media platforms is again to.
Speaker A:I think what it's done is it's moved a lot of the what we would call the elements of Western culture, individualism, those things you just laid out there.
Speaker A:And it's made it truly global.
Speaker A:So is it everyone following these things everywhere?
Speaker A:No, but I think one of the things that it's created is a new global youth culture who, you know, some people would argue have more in common with each other than they do with the rest of their culture.
Speaker A:And so, you know, in the past, missions was often, you know, and the whole field of missiology was when often people went out of western continents context into non Western contexts.
Speaker A:How do they communicate the gospel?
Speaker A:Because they're going to this completely different sort of context.
Speaker A:But as much you've got this extra like layer now coming over where there's the export of this global culture which again to cultures transmitted through tradition, custom, it's transmitted through the generations.
Speaker A:And really what this is doing is short circuiting those things.
Speaker A:So in a sense that it is creating this culture where you look less to your elders and more to your peers and perhaps even what's happening in another country.
Speaker A:And it exacerbates things, you know, it makes certain things more intense while downplaying other things.
Speaker A:So in some ways, if I was going to be really provocative.
Speaker A:You could argue that what it's doing is it's spreading an anti culture, so it eats culture.
Speaker A:So you may be in a context, whatever country you may be in, there's a few things happening.
Speaker A:So number one, there's the cultural change that would normally happen in any culture, but now you have this sort of outside voice which is almost undermining and rapidly changing culture at a high, high degree.
Speaker A:So that's why I'm using now not so much Western culture.
Speaker A:I mean, I still use that term in its right context, but I think this thing is global.
Speaker A:You know, like there is, there is a kind of Internet culture happening in the Middle east that's influenced by this, but has a Middle Eastern value that's also now going back and influencing the West.
Speaker A:So it actually is now increasingly becoming a two way street.
Speaker A:You know, there's certain music you listen to, this sort of African music now, which is really big in Europe, which started with diaspora communities that spread beyond.
Speaker A:So it's created, it's really has changed the field of culture and that has implications for missions as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was interesting.
Speaker B: We served in Africa for: Speaker B:But a lot of times, at least in Madagascar, like Facebook and certain social media things were for free.
Speaker B:So you eat whatever package you had on your phone and it was, it went, there was a lot of time and it was very similar, as you said, whether I was in the US or was in Madagascar.
Speaker B:You know, a lot of times people, they were glued to their screen and it was, you saw the changes and the things that, you know, the TikTok videos and all the things that you saw other places, it was happening in the middle of nowhere, Madagascar too.
Speaker B:And so because it was accessible by Facebook and social media platforms that as you said, kind of flattened out things.
Speaker B:And interestingly enough, as you said that you saw it became, there was such a rich cultural heritage in those African countries, but then that became predominant, as you said, kind of eating the culture or destroying it, eroding it away, that's for sure.
Speaker B:So that's platform.
Speaker B:So what is a pillar and what are some of the characteristics of pillars?
Speaker A:Well, for me, this idea of a pillar became an alternative to platform.
Speaker A:So I didn't want to just critique platform, but I actually was like, well, what's God's alternate to this?
Speaker A:What's the opposite spirit to a platform?
Speaker A:And I was sort of sitting on this for a while.
Speaker A:And I was catching a plane, and there was a woman on the plane.
Speaker A:I was flying from Perth to Melbourne across the continent of Australia.
Speaker A:And there was a woman on the plane who just was a classic platform person.
Speaker A:She saw the flight crew was serving her.
Speaker A:She caused problems.
Speaker A:The whole flight completely all about her.
Speaker A:And then we landed in Melbourne after this woman had really disrupt.
Speaker A:Not.
Speaker A:Not badly disrupted the flight, but, you know, like, she had disrupted it in a way.
Speaker A:And in Australia, we have different.
Speaker A:So there's the country of Australia, but then there's different tribal areas or could be called countries, as we call it.
Speaker A:So in indigenous culture, this country, which is like, where a particular tribal or nation group live.
Speaker A:So when you land, they'll often acknowledge those different places.
Speaker A:So in Melbourne, you know, it's a coordination that we're injured people.
Speaker A:So when you.
Speaker A:When we land in Melbourne, they mentioned that the flight crew.
Speaker A:And then they also have this thing where they say, we pay our respects to elders, past and present.
Speaker A:So when you go into country in Aboriginal culture, you also pay respects and acknowledge the elders who look after that.
Speaker A:That country.
Speaker A:And so, you know, this is normal.
Speaker A:You hear this everywhere in Australia in meetings, and you're very used to it.
Speaker A:But it just.
Speaker A:I heard it afresh in that moment, and I was like, elders, okay, so Australian Aboriginal culture, which has gone through tremendous crises and challenges since European settlement, has seen the task of preserving culture as something that elders are a key part in playing.
Speaker A:And so, you know, I began to like, okay, what makes an Indigenous Australian elder?
Speaker A:And I began to research this and.
Speaker A:And basically elder passes on the essential knowledge, culture, wisdom, traditions of their.
Speaker A:Their culture group.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I thought, well, hang on, this is really weird.
Speaker A:On one hand, in Australia, we've got an understanding of that, which I think is really important with our history.
Speaker A:But then in the rest of cultures, like youth culture now, everything can be undermined, you know, like novelty, and it's just this complete contradiction.
Speaker A:And then, you know, I began to realize too, that, you know, that concept is not unique to Australian Indigenous culture.
Speaker A:There's particular forms, that is.
Speaker A:But it's all cultures.
Speaker A:Even Western culture, going back not that long ago was about passing on culture, traditions, how you view the world and so on.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I began to think of, well, traditions and wisdom is passed on in.
Speaker A:When it's seen as important and essential for the next generation to flourish.
Speaker A:And another word for an elder is a pillar.
Speaker A:So when someone who dies is an elder in a community, they often call them a pillar of the community.
Speaker A:They're Like a support structure that enables that community to flourish.
Speaker A:And then I began to think of.
Speaker A:In the New Testament, it very much talks about the people of God being a living temple.
Speaker A:So the temple which is destroyed in 70 A.D. it's not rebuilt today in Jerusalem.
Speaker A:It's just the temple mounts.
Speaker A:There's the wailing wall, there's elements of it, but the Al Aqsa Mosque is on top of it.
Speaker A:So it hasn't been rebuilt.
Speaker A:And there's people trying to do it.
Speaker A:I saw an article the other day, but people are still trying to do it.
Speaker A:But really what Jesus is saying is his disciples ask him.
Speaker A:They walk out of the temple and they're like, look at these stones.
Speaker A:He's like, this is all going to come down.
Speaker A:And what he was talking about a living temple.
Speaker A:And in Revelation, it talks about that we will be like pillars in the living temple.
Speaker A:So I just realized a platform and a pillar, both architectural metaphors, but a pillar is completely different.
Speaker A:It's not about them.
Speaker A:It's about being a person of resilience.
Speaker A:It's not an individual story.
Speaker A:Pillars need to work together, and they create space for rooms to happen, where meetings can happen and meals and family, but also for the presence of God in the temple is where.
Speaker A:Where it dwells.
Speaker A:So for me, it was a really beautiful image and an alternate image to the idea of influence.
Speaker A:And I think there's a lot of people, and I think this is particularly true for people involved in missions.
Speaker A:There is a hiddenness, there is a unseenness to a lot of ministry.
Speaker A:And what influence and platform has done is make it seem that you're successful if you have a lot of eyeballs on you.
Speaker A:So almost in this way, look at the world.
Speaker A:The person who's in a major city of a Western Christian country, which has a big Christian, you know, industry.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Is more successful than someone who's maybe, you know, out in a small city in Mongolia who's doing incredible gospel work, you know, partnering with God as the kingdom's being built.
Speaker A:But people don't see them.
Speaker A:There's not eyeballs on that.
Speaker A:But I think with elders, there's heavenly, there is eyes.
Speaker A:It's the eyes of God.
Speaker A:And that what I wanted to do as well is must bring the metrics back to a kingdom.
Speaker A:Metrics in this as well.
Speaker A:Because I'd sit with, you know, I could sit with pastors even.
Speaker A:Even Australia, just like rural pastors who are doing great things in their community.
Speaker A:And they're not huge towns.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But amazing things.
Speaker A:But they feel they're not making a difference because, well, I'm not in that city.
Speaker A:I haven't got that big YouTube platform.
Speaker A:I've not got a massive church or my.
Speaker A:And it's interesting.
Speaker A:It's even less now about a massive church.
Speaker A:It's almost now about the Instagram, the hits, the follows.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that's.
Speaker A:That's really the essence of that idea.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Arthur Brooks, in one of his books, he talked about, you know, that idea that we can be loved and known and unique or unique and special.
Speaker B:You know, we have to make that choice.
Speaker B:And I think sometimes when we're chasing after the.
Speaker B:The likes and the hits and the presence in a community that God has placed us in, you know, it's.
Speaker B:Sometimes we can be chasing after that, being unique and special and not being fully present in the community that God's placed us to be loved and known.
Speaker B:And so that's.
Speaker B:I'm not criticizing pastors in the communities.
Speaker B:They're struggling with that.
Speaker B:I'm just saying it's something that I've.
Speaker B:It's been a challenge for me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I served in Madagascar.
Speaker B:That's like in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker B:You're not going to have a platform there.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, but it's something I battled with that.
Speaker B:That idea of trying to be unique and special, but when, you know, just that God had called me to be.
Speaker B:Love others and for people to actually get to get to know me and not just an image of me.
Speaker B:So this idea that.
Speaker B:So do pillars have to be leaders?
Speaker B:Or can people that are followers or people in the church, can they be a pillar in the community too?
Speaker B:Or does being a pillar necessitate that you're a leader?
Speaker B:Is that a fair question?
Speaker A:Great question.
Speaker A:So a pillar is not necessarily a leader, but all leaders should be pillars is how I put it.
Speaker A:Okay, so I've been helping a church recently which went through an incredible leadership crisis, and the leader fell.
Speaker A:And morally.
Speaker A:And what I found interesting is this church, there's other churches I know of where the same thing happened, and the church no longer exists, but this church has existed and I think is beginning to flourish again.
Speaker A:And, you know, I was recently with them and I was sort of just sitting in a room going, why, why, why did this church survive?
Speaker A:What hit me was I looked across the room and it's filled with pillars.
Speaker A:Not all leaders, many not in professional capacity, but incredible pillars.
Speaker A:You know, who'd served this church for years and years and years.
Speaker A:And so when crisis came, it was like there was all these extra support Structures that God could use and he has.
Speaker A:And the leader who has now taken over or two, two people, they, they both are pillars.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, you know, I just thought, wow, so you can have someone who can work in a, in the marketplace or in, you know, outside of professional ministry and be a pillar.
Speaker A:And I began to realize as a pastor who I, you know, I began to realize as you, as you plant churches or as you start new congregations or whatever, what you're really hoping for is not that, like I've had it before where literally the room gets filled and all these people turn up and then it just turns into this continual, you know, called the washing machine, where it's just people coming because it's the latest thing.
Speaker A:And then you give it a sort of two years in, you're like, oh, we haven't really built anything.
Speaker A:The room may be full.
Speaker A:But what you really want as a leader or someone doing missions, you want to meet the people of peace.
Speaker A:You want to meet a pillar in the community.
Speaker A:People who join you, build, build with you, who, who will actually be that support structure so you don't have to be, you can, you can be a pillar in your family, you can be a pillar in your street.
Speaker A:But I also think it's really important for leaders to be pillars as well because it means you work in concert with those who you walk with.
Speaker A:As well.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, so not all pillars can be a different form of influence that we wouldn't necessarily recognize.
Speaker A:And look, you get really technical and say, that is leadership.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:But I think that it's helpful for people who wouldn't see themselves as leaders to go, I can be a pillar.
Speaker A:And I know in my churches I preached on this, people like, oh, okay, let's help me understand what my role is.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And as you pointed out, so how vital that is to have pillars in the church and to know that God, that's what God's called them, to, and to function in that and to be those steadying forces in times of challenge or crisis, like you mentioned that that church went through.
Speaker B:So these, one of the questions I've been waiting to ask is I was talking to some friends that I was going to have the opportunity to get to interview you.
Speaker B:One of the things that really stuck out in the book, that it was kind of just a light bulb moment for me, was that sometimes platforms and people try to use their platform and then they want to come into an organization and get the organization to serve them rather than them serve the vision of the organization.
Speaker B:So that does that make sense.
Speaker B:So, like, when I joined the mission, I, I wanted to join.
Speaker B:I joined some of the God World missions so that we could establish a church among all peoples everywhere.
Speaker B:And that's what I was.
Speaker B:That was my focus because I wanted to be a part of that mission, to go share God's word.
Speaker B:But there's some people I've seen that come in and they're saying, well, I want to use the.
Speaker B:What AGWM has so they can elevate me and my platform.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:And so how do, how do we navigate.
Speaker B:How do you navigate that?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's an interesting shift.
Speaker B:So I'm 23, four years into this, and so, but I've seen a shift.
Speaker B:Not all people, but some people, they're trying to use the benefit of the organization to elevate them.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:This was also one of the first times I began to look at the word platform critically when I was reading a book.
Speaker A:It's not a Christian book, it's more about politics and culture by Yuval Levin called A Time to Build.
Speaker A:And he talks about.
Speaker A:There's just this page or half a page where he just mentions how he's talking about institutions and he talks about how institutions cross.
Speaker A:You know, society often are built around a mission.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it could be a missions organization.
Speaker A:It could be, you know, the Society for Prevention to Cruelty to Animals.
Speaker A:It could be, you know, something that helps mechanics, you know, whatever.
Speaker A:You join that and that institution, this is how they've worked traditionally, you join it, you work through that institution, and that institution shapes you and forms you towards its goals.
Speaker A:So, for example, you know, if you joined, you know, near me, in Australia, we call it the Royal Society of Prevention and Cruelty to Animals.
Speaker A:It's not far from me actually up here.
Speaker A:And if you join that as a junior person, that will shape you towards caring and loving for animals.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's his goals.
Speaker A:But he talks about this change that platform's done.
Speaker A:And he links it partially to social media where people now join, seeing it, they use the institution as a platform.
Speaker A:So I'm going to join this institution because the ultimate goal here is not the mission of the organization, it's my personal mission of being known or whatever.
Speaker A:And he gives the example of in, you know, he watched a bunch of, you know, congressional subcommittees in US Politics where he noticed that there were people who were joining politics on all sides, no longer to serve, because that's what politics originally was, to serve your community, state your electorate, whatever, but actually to Build their brand.
Speaker A:And a lot of it was actually about the building of their personal brand.
Speaker A:And so they Senate subcommittees, instead of getting to the bottom of whatever issue they were wrestling with, they were looking for the sort of six, you know, three, four minute YouTube viral moment, you know, and I've seen this now, now I've watched the news.
Speaker A:I'm like, oh, that's what's going on.
Speaker A:And then they often leave.
Speaker A:And so I saw that.
Speaker A:And then to be honest, like again to, I began to see, you know, I remember talking to again to an organization.
Speaker A:I was just speaking out and just chatting out to the leaders and that had a leader who joined them, incredibly talented person.
Speaker A:And they were like, wow, this person or a younger person is going to be the next that had an older leader who passed on.
Speaker A:So let's get the next young, talented person.
Speaker A:Person who joined the organization.
Speaker A:Incredibly talented.
Speaker A:Started with a huge like explosion, grew the organization got really popular and then left and had then just, well, I can now run this thing myself.
Speaker A:I've now got a big enough YouTube thing and you know, like, and there was just this hurt and it wasn't a unit.
Speaker A:People leave jobs, that happens.
Speaker A:But they realized they, they felt used.
Speaker A:And I've seen this in multiple places now.
Speaker A:And there is almost a little bit in the Christian world.
Speaker A:And again too, I want to be careful.
Speaker A:I say this because I think God calls people in different ways.
Speaker A:But there is almost this thing that, you know, you start the church or you start the mission, or you start the organization to build a brand.
Speaker A:And then when you've really made it, then you just get on the sort of speaking book circuit or whatever.
Speaker A:And there are some people, 100% who got calls to itinerant ministry.
Speaker A:I have no problem with that.
Speaker A:And people who have the right call with God sort of got an apostolic call or however you want to describe that.
Speaker A:But I think we do see that in our culture.
Speaker A:And I think that's a really.
Speaker A:Across the world, it's a really corrosive effect on human cultures because it's not.
Speaker A:Jesus said leaders are servants.
Speaker A:And Jesus came to serve, you know, and a lot of his life was lived in obscurity.
Speaker A:You know, he had a trade, his carpenter, and he was in a community and he had limitations and it was from who he was that actually his influence flowed.
Speaker A:So I think that, you know, I had this moment recently where I was, I was in New Zealand and someone came out to me and I'd given a talk and I was, you know, I'm Going to give a talking speaker.
Speaker A:So that was a great talk, or agree or disagree, whatever.
Speaker A:And when I was younger, I was really.
Speaker A:I realized now looking back, I was hoping to say, that was fantastic.
Speaker A:Well done.
Speaker A:You're amazing.
Speaker A:And this person just said, look, you know, I've watched how you've walked with God over a long period that heard me years ago, 20 years ago, and they just said, you know, I just.
Speaker A:Just love seeing what God's done in you.
Speaker A:And it was an interesting one because it was like, oh, okay, so there's some words to that effect.
Speaker A:And I was like, this is not about the achievement of that moment.
Speaker A:This is me becoming more like Christ and them seeing more in Christ than me over time.
Speaker A:Now, that person could only say that because that we'd had these meetings, you know, you see them every few years or whatever.
Speaker A:So I think that that's a different way of looking at ministry.
Speaker A:And I think organizations need to be careful also vetting people, that this is not what that person is doing, because we can get bedazzled by talent and charisma, when actually I think it's really character and heart and service.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:And it's the.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You shared about that cumulative effect of.
Speaker B:Of ministry.
Speaker B:And so in missions, normally your first four or five years, you're trying to learn language, learn culture, you're trying.
Speaker B:At least for me, I was trying to keep my head above water and trying to survive.
Speaker B:And then when it gets to the point where that cumulative effect, where you can really get your.
Speaker B:Your feet under you as far as ministry, then, you know, frequently people will move on, they'll transition to something else.
Speaker B:And it's just an opportune time when you're there.
Speaker B:And so a few podcasts back, I interviewed a leader.
Speaker B:His name was Joseph.
Speaker B:And he talked, he went through the pastoral epistles, and he said, you know, a lot of times we think when it comes to the church, we just need people to have more capacity and more talent.
Speaker B:But actually, the Pastoral Epistles talks more about the character that supports the capacities rather than.
Speaker B:And he said, a lot of times in the church, we're worried about capacity, but as you said, it's that character that supports it.
Speaker B:And how do we.
Speaker B:How do we navigate that and understand and invest in it?
Speaker B:And it's a long obedience in the same direction.
Speaker B:I mean, it's.
Speaker B:It doesn't come easy.
Speaker B:As you said, It's 20 years.
Speaker B:It's not something that happens quick.
Speaker B:And spiritual maturity, at least for me, is a continual, daily thing that Takes time, takes intentionality and it's not necessarily a quick microwave thing.
Speaker B:So, so with this idea that, that organizations are not necessarily forming individuals but the performative individual would come in and try to deform the organization.
Speaker B:How did, how did this play, how does that play out when we're trying to train people to be a part of an organization.
Speaker B:I'm thinking missions minded like so we people they bring into training and so we're trying to impart the DNA that we're lifelong learners, that we're, you know, this is our mission.
Speaker B:We want the indigenous church principles.
Speaker B:So it's not about the missionary, but it's, you know, but at the same time somebody's coming in and maybe trying to deconstruct that so they can elevate themselves.
Speaker B:Any thoughts on that?
Speaker A:You know, I think there's some key things like I think often giving people tasks before roles, you know, seeing who is, who is servants, you know, around you.
Speaker A:And that's embodied before things happen.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Also, what people are willing to do in the hidden spaces is really, really key.
Speaker A:And you know, I think at the end of the day I would rather have someone who is, has character, has humility, has a servant hearted attitude than someone who is incredibly talented.
Speaker A:But there's questions and I think when I look back, I think when organizations are really, really honest with themselves and you get into an issue and you see someone you like three years in and you see this, you often do go back, hang on, I did see, I did have a little red flag if I'm really honest with myself.
Speaker A:So I think having an eye over that, you know, even, even the conversation around this, even just bringing this up, naming it, hey, one thing we talk to all our people coming in is in the world today there's this thing of performance, blah, blah, blah, you know, that that's a helpful thing because in a sense it peels back the layer and reveals it.
Speaker A:You know, I think that that's really key.
Speaker A:But I think, yeah, looking for those initial things because in a sense like capacity can be built or skills can be built and you know, these things can be built.
Speaker A:But you know, I think that you need that baseline of the heart that is a servant heart.
Speaker A:The other thing I would say too is I heard a football coach once say there's an old Dutch saying that, you know, never trust a leader who's not fallen off the horse or had some crisis.
Speaker A:Not, not crisis, but has under.
Speaker A:Yeah, in a sense has, has experienced suffering because I think suffering is the great revealer I've seen that incredibly talented leaders.
Speaker A:And suffering comes along and it reveals everything.
Speaker A:And you see other people who.
Speaker A:You're like, oh, they're doing all right.
Speaker A:And then suffering comes and they.
Speaker A:It's the making of them.
Speaker A:So I think that as well.
Speaker A:I remember, you know, my old boss was Alan Hirsch, who wrote a lot on missions.
Speaker A:And Deb.
Speaker A:Deb Hirsch, his wife said to me one day, you know, she was giving advice to.
Speaker A:She would give advice to couples in the church, young couples.
Speaker A:He's like, don't get engaged unless you've seen four seasons together.
Speaker A:And I think I would also say, like, when you're looking for new people or you're integrating people into your organization or whatever, see them in different seasons.
Speaker A:And that's not necessarily winter, summer, but that's actually joyful seasons, success, but also failure, suffering, boring seasons.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, a lot's all happening.
Speaker A:So, yeah, there'd just be some thoughts off the top of my head.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was a challenge for me.
Speaker B:You know, I. I think that idea of performing, when you come out of a culture, at least Western culture that I came out of, where performance was so huge, and then you get to a culture where really, you can't.
Speaker B:You can't really speak the language, you really don't understand the culture, there's not a whole lot of performing that can go on.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I wonder if that's not why the attrition rate is.
Speaker B:You know, the attrition rate in missions is probably in the past, has been, you know, 46, 47% of the people don't return for after the first term.
Speaker B:So they, you know, the first term is normally three or four years, and they get off.
Speaker B:They get off.
Speaker B:But if you're living in a culture where performance platform is what's the norm?
Speaker B:And then, as you said, a pillar, that takes time.
Speaker B:It can be a challenge.
Speaker B:And honestly, I struggled.
Speaker B:I struggled with it 100% myself.
Speaker B:And when you realize your identity is so much based in that performance, and then you.
Speaker B:You can't perform anything.
Speaker B:You can't even order water.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:You're in a lot of.
Speaker B:You're a lot of trouble.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:A lot of troubles.
Speaker B:So any thoughts culturally, in.
Speaker B:In the church and in the mission?
Speaker B:This is the last question I have for you, and then I'm going to ask you to pray for us, or if there's a question I should have asked you, how can we in the church influence so that pillars become something that's celebrated and not the platform that's celebrated.
Speaker A:Is that.
Speaker B:Is that a fair question?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:I think a couple of things.
Speaker A:I think the first one is to begin to really pray.
Speaker A:What would it look like if my life was a pillar?
Speaker A:And how do I start seeing myself as a pillar?
Speaker A:You know, I think it is an aspirational thing that God calls us to, but it's different.
Speaker A:Like, it's an aspiration.
Speaker A:Like, oh, well, if I do A, B, C and D, I'm going to get this payoff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So much of being a pillar actually blesses others, you know, and it's been really interesting as I've shared this with people in different ways, rooms.
Speaker A:One thing I've often done is wherever room I'm in, I look around and go, there's pillars in these walls.
Speaker A:And in some time, as I was.
Speaker A:I've been in.
Speaker A:Actually I was in a church recently, a beautiful church.
Speaker A:And it was an older church, a few hundred years old, and you could see the pillars.
Speaker A:So I pointed that I was in Europe and I was like, the pillars were on display.
Speaker A:But then most buildings, like, particularly modern buildings, their pillars are hidden in the wall, so you don't see them, you know, so.
Speaker A:So asking the question, am I prepared to do things which may not be seen?
Speaker A:I'm not going to get a feedback loop of affirmation.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But that are actually investments in the eternal.
Speaker A:And so for me, almost the pillar hitting in the wall is like investing the eternal now.
Speaker A:So it's like the eternal breaking into now, heaven breaking to earth.
Speaker A:So I think that's one.
Speaker A:The second thing is one of the reasons I read this book was to get the language out there, you know, and what's really sort of like been really satisfying is I've been in a couple of things where people are using the language and I'm just sitting in the group and, oh, that's really cool.
Speaker A:I haven't said anything.
Speaker A:I'm so.
Speaker A:This is great.
Speaker A:So part of my secret agenda, hidden agenda for good, is conspiracy for good, is to get that language out there.
Speaker A:So we start talking about this because I also would hear people talk about platform.
Speaker A:So I thought, I'm going to run a campaign against that.
Speaker A:So they're just using the language, naming platforms.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I began to notice at my church there and at other churches I visited, there are people who have platforms.
Speaker A:And I've just said, hey, you know what?
Speaker A:Just a quiet word of encouragement, you know, you're a platform.
Speaker A:You've done this.
Speaker A:I see this.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:You know, and I actually Felt a bit convicted because I thought there's people who come and serve in our platforms and they don't get any acknowledgment.
Speaker A:So either people are building a platform, get acknowledgement.
Speaker A:People who are creating heaps of problems, but you know, it's just the squeaky wheel gets the oil, but often just the humble servant, reliable, regular people never get it.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So encouraging the platforms around you.
Speaker A:So I think it's a cultural thing, to be honest.
Speaker A:Like a culture, as in building culture.
Speaker A:Whatever.
Speaker A:Whatever you're doing.
Speaker A:And even for people in missions.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:How can you be a platform in another culture?
Speaker A:Australia is a country of migrants and you know, there's many people have come here and there's lots of people in Australia who aren't born in Australia, didn't start as Australians, but have come and added to our country through being pillars.
Speaker A:And so I think you don't have to be from in country to be a capillary.
Speaker A:You can be from outside.
Speaker A:But I think it's a great aspiration to have.
Speaker A:I think it's a very biblical aspiration.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I. I value.
Speaker B:Because you did give the language and I think that's one of the giftings God's given you.
Speaker B:You're able to put things to words.
Speaker B:You put give language to have conversations and honestly to pray about.
Speaker B:And so it's.
Speaker B:It's been something that I've integrated into my prayer life that I really do want to be a pillar, even though I'm living in a platform.
Speaker B:Platform society.
Speaker B:Mark, is there a question, if you've been thinking if Aaron was a good podcast host, he probably would ask me this, but we got to the end and he's not asked me this question yet.
Speaker B:Is there something I should have asked you?
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I would just have 2.
Speaker A:2.
Speaker A:2 comments more which might be helpful, particularly in the missions context.
Speaker A:I think one, there could be a temptation and this may be no one.
Speaker A:So this is not.
Speaker A:You ignore this.
Speaker A:But as in the audience, you know, there could be that thing of loneliness where you're in.
Speaker A:You're in a culture and you're like, man, I struggle with language.
Speaker A:I'm struggling to understand it.
Speaker A:Where broadcasting yourself back home.
Speaker A:So you're not building the platform in the culture that you're serving.
Speaker A:All of a sudden now you can broadcast that back home.
Speaker A:And again too, there could be positive things the kingdom does.
Speaker A:Maybe first fort raising that could be helpful and maybe it's a way of doing.
Speaker A:But just doing that with bringing that all before the lordship of Christ.
Speaker A:Because it's like some of this stuff is what I've learned with all this.
Speaker A:There's not hard and fast rules, you know.
Speaker A:So, you know, I've had people who in Christian publishing sit down with me and go, mark, well I'm a marketer in Christian publishing.
Speaker A:How do I do this?
Speaker A:You know, we build author brands.
Speaker A:You know, my comment to them is like, it's not like the spirit of religion should come over this, you know.
Speaker A:And you know, there are people who use platforms really well.
Speaker A:We're using, we're using the platform of Zoom here to record this.
Speaker A:And there's amazing benefits, but I think it's more attitudes of the heart, like just checking your heart before the Lord.
Speaker A:Why am I doing this?
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, often one thing I do is if I'm going to post something on Instagram or something, why am I doing this?
Speaker A:Who am I doing this for?
Speaker A:And what am I expecting out of this?
Speaker A:Just little questions like that's really helpful.
Speaker A:And then I think the second thing as well is the thing I just say this is, this is more, more broad mission.
Speaker A:I mean I studied missiology at seminary and a lot of it I began to apply to, you know, Western context and, and increasingly in a global context.
Speaker A:But this is, the platforms is changing a lot of things, you know, and, and cultures in.
Speaker A:In flux.
Speaker A:You know, I just was reading yesterday, last night about new political party in Japan which is copying many things in the west and it's getting growing really fast through social media.
Speaker A:There's talk is is there Russian influence in this, in this, in this thing?
Speaker A:You know, and so it's fascinating how you seeing dynamics playing out in other countries or you know, the role that social media may be playing in African elections or you know, the role of Middle east and the Gospel in the Middle east or the way social media's enabled the Alpha course to flourish in China.
Speaker A:I was talking to my friend who's CEO of Alpha.
Speaker A:So just, just more I'd say that in that often what you may have learned at seminary is really helpful if you study missions.
Speaker A:And I was literally reading yesterday Paul Hebert and going back to some of the classics.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But I was also reading it going, this is changing quickly.
Speaker A:Just as many people feel that, you know, in the west feel like the world looked very different seven years ago, six years ago.
Speaker A:The sort of pre covered world.
Speaker A:Often people talk about that's happening all over the world.
Speaker A:So just, just more an awareness that this is changing global culture, this is changing stuff everywhere.
Speaker A:And Whether you're in, you know, New York, it's changing, but also, you know, in Lagos or Suva or, you know, wherever, you know, Ulaanbaatar, this is.
Speaker A:This is changing everywhere.
Speaker A:So just, just be.
Speaker A:You're doing two things.
Speaker A:You're an observer and learner of the local culture you're in, but you're also an observer of what is this global culture doing and the playoff between the two.
Speaker A:So that's my.
Speaker A:That's my little missiology professor point there.
Speaker B:Love it.
Speaker B:Love it.
Speaker B:Mark, will you pray for us?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:God, I just want to just firstly begin by thanking you for my brothers and sisters who are serving your church out from home.
Speaker A:Many in other cultures, some may be supporting at home the work of missions, but I just think of them and I just have this real senses, just even as I pray now of your.
Speaker A:Your pleaseness with them.
Speaker A:God, any who may be feeling a sense of loneliness at this moment, disconnection, maybe even that feeling that this whole dynamic of how this whole landscape has been set up of platform, that they're toying away in hiddenness, and that hiddenness can seem like ineffectiveness.
Speaker A:God, we know that it's hard to learn language or languages.
Speaker A:It's hard to learn culture.
Speaker A:It's hard to find a place, place when you're from the outside.
Speaker A:And, you know, particularly in this platform society world, you know, it can feel like we're not making an impact.
Speaker A:But I just want to just pray, Father, for kingdom eyes, kingdom metrics, kingdom measurements, where they really see what, you know, they're doing through how you see things.
Speaker A:God, I just pray, Father, for that vision of pillars in your living temple that you're building in the world.
Speaker A:May we aspire to be that.
Speaker A:And I thank you for those who are that in their communities, even though they may not feel like it this at this time, who also are that in their marriages, families, churches, streets, mission agencies, God, schools, hospitals.
Speaker A:God, we just pray, Father, that through this work together as you build your living temple in the world, that you just encourage them, you sustain them, you empower them, you shape them, you form them.
Speaker A:And I just pray, Father, that you just give them a sense of your encouragement about the work that they're doing.
Speaker A:Protect them, protect our hearts, God.
Speaker A:We want our hearts set upon what you want.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I just pray, Father, that this is an encouragement to those listening and, yeah, that you'll just use them to build what you're building in the world.
Speaker A:We pray this in Jesus name.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker B:Amen.
