Navigating Spiritual Leadership: Insights from Dr. Rhoden

Aaron Santmyire: 00:00:06

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast. This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.

My name is Aaron Santmyire and I'm going to be your host. Today. We have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast Dr. Rhoden.

Him and I had the opportunity to have dinner at one of the Potomac district functions the other month. And so in process of that, he shared about his podcast, I shared about my podcast and I asked him if he would consider being a guest. And so Dr.

Rhoden is somebody I have got to see lead and be a spiritual leader over the long term. You know, the reality of being faithful over the long term, being a steady presence.

I remember as a kid he would come into our home church sometimes when things the waters were a little bit rough, and he has this presence. He provides stability, he provides discipline, discernment, and he's a quintessential spiritual leader.

And so it was an honor to have him on the podcast.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:01:03

Today.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:01:03

I get to ask him questions, what you know about spiritual leadership, of navigating conflict and how to respond and not react, how to be led by the spirit and not get caught up in.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:01:15

The emotions of the.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:01:16

Of a room and just some wisdom and insight. You won't miss it. You won't, you know, you don't want to miss it. He was an honor to be with and just a Joy to have Dr. Roden on the podcast.

One of his themes now is hope. You know, he in the last few years, he'll share a little bit about his story and just the miraculous way that God has been with him.

And then as he speaks and he shares that theme of hope, man, it comes out and really appreciated him being on the podcast. Do want to ask you to subscribe to the podcast. I know the podcast I subscribe to are the ones I listen to come out every Monday or Tuesday.

Know what I will be listening to throughout the week. Also want you to continue to send in your questions for Back Channel with Foth.

That's where I get to sit down with Dick Foth and get to learn from him and answer listener questions. And that's always a fun time. Dick has some years of experience in D.C. him and Dr. Roden, they know each other well, they're close friends.

And so it was. Yeah, so there's kind of those worlds colliding, but just a, just a phenomenal time when we get to sit down with Dick on Back Channel with Foth.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started. So Here we go.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:02:25

Greetings, and welcome back to the Clarity podcast. Excited to have a new friend of the podcast with us here today, Dr. Roden. Dr. Rhoden, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:02:33

Oh, thank you, Aaron. I've been looking forward to this since we talked about it at sitting at a table at dinner one night. Oh, you told me about this. And here we are.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:02:43

Here we are. I sat down and I was excited, and then I said, I haven't asked for you, and you agreed to do this. And so I'm excited. I'm excited about it.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:02:52

Thank you for taking this kind of initiative, Aaron.

And I know that from that conversation at the table you talked about the number of people that you've been able to have conversation with through the years. I guess goes all over the world, huh?

Aaron Santmyire: 00:03:05

Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And it's been fun. I like to learn, and this is a good way to learn.

So I get to sit down with people that are wise and with experience, and I get to grow and. Looking forward to it. Looking forward to it. Dr. Roden, you know, I've known.

I've seen you lead for a long time as a kid growing up in the Potomac Network and seen you lead in many ways, so. But maybe somebody's listening to this podcast and they have not had that opportunity.

Will you share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you some questions?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:03:36

Sure, I'd love to do that, Aaron. Well, Joan and I have been married for almost 60 years now. Wow. Pretty amazing. We. In January, we'll celebrate 59, so we're already thinking about 60.

A wonderful blessing in my life. We have three children that are all married and have eight grandchildren, and we're just blessed as a family.

And all of them have made a confession of faith in Christ, and we're grateful for that. So that's kind of our family. And as a matter of fact, we were going to be celebrating Joan's 80th birthday.

She wouldn't mind me saying that on November. Actually, November 27th is her actual birthday. We were going to do it on Saturday the 30th, and I celebrated my 82nd birthday.

So I've been around the sun 82 times, as we say, wow, that's a little bit about just our family. I grew up in Florida with a grandmother. My. My parents were killed when I was two years of age, and I. There's a story about that.

I've written a book called From Restless to Reconcile, which tells that whole story, and came to Christ when I was 16, and I just immediately Felt a call to ministry and went away to Falls Bible College and trained for ministry, and then worked with David Wilkerson in New York City and then went on to another school. Went to Wheaton from my master's degree, then planted a church in Richmond. And I mean, I always say my life has exceeded my dreams.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:05:17

Wow.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:05:18

I mean, I've had more wonderful experiences than anybody ever deserves, particularly me. But God has been good to me and had this joy of planting this church in Richmond. Western assembly of God. We were there 22 years.

Had the joy of serving as the District superintendent Over the Potomac ministry network for 15 years, and even had the opportunity to serve as a Northeast Regional Executive presbyter. I mean, stuff far beyond what I'm ever capable of doing. I just. But. But God just blessed me in ways that I don't deserve.

And I'm just grateful today for the opportunity. And you know what? If I had it to do over, I might change a few things, but I'd do it all over again. Yeah, I'd do it all over again.

I love every opportunity I've been given. And I'm just. I'm just so grateful today.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:06:11

Yeah. And I thank you. You are an example to me of somebody who's been in life and ministry, and you.

You in each season, you've lived it to the fullest, and you've. You've done it with integrity and character. And what a blessing for me as a younger generation to see a leader that is led in many different ways.

And you continue to lead with. With excellence in all those different seasons of life. And so that's why I'm excited to spend some you today.

So when looking at spiritual leadership, are there one or two people maybe that had a profound influence on your life as a spiritual leader?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:06:50

You know, there. There are people that have been in my life at different times. So let me just talk first of all about the beginning. There. There was a.

There was a songwriter named Iris Stanfield who took me under his wing early on and just really made a profound impact on my life. There was a man named Paul Davis who led me to Christ.

Paul actually was the owner and president of Cadillac Glass Corporation and went on to be a missionary in West Africa. And so those are two people that affected me early on. And then as I became a pastor, began to grow.

David Wilkerson was really a huge impact in my life. Then, of course, John Maxwell came along. Everybody knows the name John Maxwell for leadership. So I just wanted to be a learner all of my life.

And these People have, I could, I could name many more. But those are, those are some names that immediately come to my mind of people that have really impacted my life.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:07:57

So when someone asked you, Dr. Roden, what is a spiritual leader, how do you respond to that?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:08:05

Well, I've thought about that, you know, a number of years. And so I wrote a book called Four Faces of a Leader. Okay. Because the greatest leader who ever lived was Jesus.

As a matter of fact, there are more books about Jesus in the Library of Congress than any other leader. That's a surprise. You think it might be Abraham Lincoln or George Washington or Gandhi or somebody, but Jesus, there are more books about him.

So when I think about leadership, we often think about leaders in terms of what size of an organization they might lead. But Jesus really gives us, I think, the model of what leadership is all about. He was first of all his shepherd. That was his calling.

He's called the great Shepherd. So as a spiritual leader, I would be a shepherd, I'd have a shepherd's heart. That, that is absolutely critical. Then Jesus was a servant.

I mean, he washed the disciples feet. That's about character, our character. You know, the people who know us best should believe in us the most.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:09:17

Wow.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:09:18

And that's what Jesus, Jesus was the. Even though they didn't always understand him, he modeled the face of a servant and then he was a steward. He was, he managed what he was given.

He tells the story about if you, if you're going to be ruler over many things, you have to be faithful with a few things. If you're going to take care of the God's riches, you have to take care of worldly riches as well.

So stewardship, this is an area, this is about competency. We don't really like to talk about this much in ministry because it's really hard to, to talk about competency in ministry.

But I think that's, I think that's really an important piece of ministry. And then I could take a long time to talk about that. But I'll just leave that for a moment and go to the final one. He was a seer. Jesus was a seer.

That's the ability to bring about change, to see the future. And every leader has to have that. So I think as a spiritual leader we have to have these four faces.

And you can't just pick one, you have to have all four. Now you may be more prominent in one than you are in another. Princess.

I think I have a, if I had took my two prominent faces, I would say I have a Shepherd. And I'm a seer. I have to work harder at the servant and the. And the steward part, but I have to work at all of those.

And I have to know which face to show up with at the given time. Princess, when you go to the hospital and you're visiting someone, there you are, you're a shepherd to them. You're representing God.

When it's time to bear the annual budget, you're the steward, the face of the steward. You gotta, you gotta know what's going on the. So you can. When you're gonna talk about casting vision for the church and where you go for the future.

You have to be a seer so you can see how those faces are important for us as a spiritual leader. And it is to know that we're called by God. And then the steps that we need to take to prepare ourselves, I think are huge.

Again, I'm a firm believer in. I believe in the calling of God. And I don't think a person has to be formally educated to be a leader. But it sure helps when you have.

It sure helps particularly when you are. Let's say you're a pastor.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:11:50

Yeah.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:11:51

And, and you're talking to people who are school teachers. I mean, they had to go to four years of college to get their degree to teach school.

So if I'm going to be a pastor and I'm going to teach them, should I have some kind of preparation and for all of that?

So I really believe it's important as a spiritual leader, if I'm going to be a person of influence, that I have to prepare myself mentally, I have to prepare my heart, I have to develop my calling of the Lord. So that's, that's just kind of my take on what it means to be a spiritual leader.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:12:27

Dr. Rhoden, I could ask a lot of questions. I'll get it down to one on this. But you talked about learning to see what. What face.

You talked about going to the hospital, your shepherd, and at the board meeting and presenting a budget. When you were in your early days of ministry, how did you learn?

I guess I'm asking, do you have any wisdom from somebody that's early on in ministry on how they can learn to navigate what those different. For those four faces at different times so that they're going in for what is needed in the situation? Does that make sense?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:12:59

It does. And. Well, one of the, one of the things that I tried to do was to always be learning from other people.

I would watch other leaders, see how they function, would watch what they did. I listened to other people preach, how they preached and what they said, how they interacted. You can't copy somebody else because that doesn't work.

I remember when I first started preaching, I would lean over the pulpit and I would. Really went after it. Somebody said to me one time, bob, are you mad when you preach? Said, no, I'm just trying to look like David Wilkerson.

They said, hey, you can't be like David Wilkerson. He's. He had this prophetic kind of ministry. But I learned from David Wilkerson that. That we do have to be seers.

We have to be the kind of people that, that there is a. There is a prophetic voice that we need at times. So I.

You learn that and say, and I think the way, the way you develop that in your life, it is as you see other people, that they were. They were mentoring me, though they may have not known they were mentoring me. Yeah, is that you. You ask God for his anointing upon your life.

There is a book by R.T. kendall called the Anointing, one of the best books I've ever read. That, that, that helps us to know. How about ministry, for instance? You can't.

You can't meet every need of every person. I mean, if you tried to do that, you'd go 24 hours a day. You'd near never get the work done.

I think somehow you have to say, lord, help me to be anointed so that I know what to do.

I mean, when Jesus went to the pool of Bethesda and he healed that one person, that one man, there were other people that had deeds, but he only healed the one person. He was just anointed to do that that day. And I, I think there is a sense of. I know that sounds a little bit mystical in a way, but.

But there is a sense about ministry in which I have to say, God, would you anoint me and help me to know what to do and how to do it? So that's, that's. That's work. That's how I got. I. You know, you fumble and stumble. It's amazing what I learned by stumble.

I just stumbled onto some things. You know, I just. I'd come across. I'd read a book or I'd see somebody and I'd say, wow, that's. I just, I just really resonated in my heart.

I think having the. Having desire to be a learner is really, really key to being a spiritual leader.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:15:46

Good stuff. Dr. Roden, you're known as a Statesman. And how have you learned to maintain Christlikeness in the midst of some challenging situations?

Whether that's conflict or. I've seen over my lifespan, I grew up in a church, and I remember you coming to my church when they were going through some difficult times.

And you bring, you bring your presence when you come into the room. You bring stability and you bring. You steady the ship. How have you learned to do that in the midst of some very difficult situations?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:16:23

Well, I think first of all, we have to pay attention to our own spiritual health. We have to do things that keep us in tune with God's work in our own life.

For instance, once a quarter every three months, I try to read first and second Timothy and Titus. Those are great books for instruction about ministry. And it challenges me every time I read them. I also read through the Bible every year.

Now, there are some parts of the Bible that are not, you know, all the begats and the genealogies and some of the, some of the things that are, you know, you say, wow, this is. But I, but I plow through it and I generally do it with.

I use the headphones and listen as well as seeing so that two of my senses are interacting so that whatever I do and wherever I go, I want to know that I prepared myself.

Someone said recently that much of the problem in ministry is we can be narcissistic, we can have egos, we be driven by those things rather than, you know, it says, Jesus humbled himself and he became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. But wherefore God hath also highly exalted him.

So let others be the ones who would praise you or say good things about you, but keep yourself humble before God. And in Jim Collins book Good to Great, he said that the Level 5 leader is the person who has combination of humility and wisdom.

And those are two things I think we say, lord, would you just help me to walk before you so that you can speak into my life in that way? So it's, you know, you don't think of your. It's, we ought not to think of ourselves more highly than we should. The scripture says so.

I think we see ourselves as servants of Christ wherever we go and say, lord, help me, help me to understand that conflict is endemic to the church. I mean, you read the New Testament. I mean, James says, hey, why you're fighting and quarreling among yourselves.

But what you also learn about conflict is that conflict is generally not over values. I mean, I didn't go to many churches to Try to help decide if the resurrection was real or if the Bible was real.

Conflict usually happens over methods and goals, over methods and goals that have been turned into values. Here's an example. I went to a church and they had. They had.

There was a split in the church and the split was over the youth group selling ham sandwiches at the basement of the church on a Wednesday night. Because that church. To believe you should not eat in the church. But somehow they had worked around that.

And this youth group was raising money for Speed Delight by selling ham sandwiches after church on Wednesday night. They turn methods and goals into a value and people got all out of sorts. I think helping people understand, hey, let's find it. Is this really.

How do we make this into a value now? We ought to respect traditions and understand people, but just I think helping people unpack why they're feeling the way they are about something.

So you're going to have conflict and organizations, churches, wherever. And we could also talk about the conflict cycle, which is.

Starts out with tension, development and role dilemma and then the injustice gathering stories that go on in that cycle. And then there's a confrontation and then there's how you're going to somehow adapt to that afterwards. So the conflict cycle goes on in places.

Again, I think just trying to understand human nature and how it works is very, very important to us in any kind of leadership role.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:20:51

How did you, when you walked into situations that were tense, how did you not gather and gather the tenseness? You know, I mean, take on the tenseness that was already there? Because I had.

I've seen you walk into rooms and you, Your tone, the way you present yourself, you don't gather the tenseness in the room and you have the ability to bring stability to it. Is that just something you've learned over time or for younger leaders?

How do we not gather the stress and the tension that's in the room and continue to lead forward? Is that a fair question?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:21:25

Yeah. And, you know, some of that is. It depends on where you are, what meaning and what the issues are at hand.

I think if people know that you're there to try to help, you're not there to take sides and that you're to try to help them to understand that. You know, if you can, if you can respond to feelings first, then you can begin to somehow inject facts into the situation.

I think understanding, say, hey, you know, I know we're all feeling really confused here and it's hurtful.

So the sense of identity, I think, with where people are that you're not coming in just as someone from the outside that I'm going to tell you what to do. You try to involve yourself in your situation. Jesus was a great model of this.

I mean, when he's going through the town and Zacchaeus is in the tree, and, I mean, Zacchaeus was one of the most hated people in the community because he was the chief of tax collectors. But Jesus goes to his house and something happened in that home where Zacchaeus was a changed person because Jesus took time with him.

He probably listened to what he had to say and said, zacchaeus, you. I understand where you are. You're. You're not thought of well in the community, but let me give you hope for a better life.

So that's, I think, letting people know that you understand you don't have to agree with people. You can say to people, hey, I understand. That doesn't mean you agree with them. You're just saying, I understand where you are and what's going on.

Those are just some practical things that come to mind about when we walk into situations that are. They're a little bit tense at times. And as a district superintendent, I was in many of those.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:23:29

I'm sure you were. I'm sure you were.

And, you know, I think the challenge of it is if we were going into a corporation that was selling toys, it'd be one thing, but, you know, it's the body of Christ. And I think that that amplifies and it adds dynamics there, as you said. I think people get the values mixed up with methods and.

But majority of the time, people love Jesus.

They want to see the church go forward and to see how we navigate that and how we can do that together and move forward in unity rather than disunity, I think is something we can all continue to lear. Learn and grow in. For sure. For sure. Another question I have for you.

So, mentoring other spiritual leaders, what are some things that you focus on that maybe you didn't focus on in the past and maybe some areas of greater emphasis?

So when you're mentoring and speaking into the lives of spiritual leaders, what are some things that you focus on that maybe you didn't focus on in the past and some areas that you emphasize in the day we live in today?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:24:34

And just before I answer that, I want to go back and say just another word about conflict. Aaron, if I may do that, all contends for the unity of the church more than anything else, because that's the place where it gets off track.

So I think that's why it's important for us to deal with these conflict situations and say, hey, we're here to try to build unity. In terms of mentoring. You know, when.

When I was superintendent, Dick Foth and I had took groups of eight to 10 younger pastors and we had mentoring sessions with them. And one of the. One of the first things that we did with them is we said, let's everybody tell their history.

Tell us where you're from, because everybody has a. From.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:25:25

Yeah.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:25:25

And I think it's important to help people understand that your past does not have to trap you. It can shape you. And so how we do, how we deal with the past, I think admitting how we deal with our history is very, very important.

The Bible also tells us to forget some things and to remember some things and say, well, how do we do that? Well, we forget. We try to forget the things that would keep us stuck where we are, and we want to remember the things that will propel us forward.

So I think talking with people about their history and then sharing your own history, I mean, Paul said to the church at Thessalonica, I loved you so much that I shared my very life with you. So sharing your life with a personal life experience, things that you've been with, is very important.

I didn't do that for a long time until one day Dick Foes said to me, said, bob, telling your story, that's the best thing you got, buddy. So we were, we were just. But it's. And learning about other people's history, what they learned from. So I think that's.

That's very important in mentoring.

We also, we talked about our failures, what things that didn't work out in the ministry, because, you know, people really identify with your failures more than they do with your successes. For instance, when I. When I talked about being in a building program where we overspent and we owed more money than we could pay, and I mean, I was.

That we made some terrible mistakes in this building program. I mean, people identify with that because a lot of pastors have walked through that or missionaries or people say, I've been in financial struggles.

So sharing areas where you have. We failed. I remember one time I was. I grew up in the church where I was pastoring in the early days at West End.

You know, we had a Sunday morning, a Sunday night, and a Wednesday night. So I had three preparations a week. I remember one time on a Sunday night, it had been a long week, and I got through the Sunday morning.

That was okay. But I came to Sunday night And, I mean, I was pretty empty.

And I thought, well, maybe I got enough in the tank here to, you know, kind of say a few things. So I'm up there kind of. I was trying to preach a bit, and I was funding around, and I. I was not feeling very good about what I was.

What was happening. And finally I closed my Bible and I said to the congregation, I said, you know, folks, I don't know what I'm trying to say.

And you certainly don't know what I'm trying to say. You know, that kind of transparency. And I just said to them, I've had a really long week.

Why don't we just come to the altar and pray together for a little bit? Now, you can do that one or two times in 20 years. You can't do that often, but you don't want to try that very much.

But I think that transparency in our failures and where we say, hey, I'm just not ready here, it's important in mentoring people for them to know that all of us have imperfections and we have areas where we've just not been at our best. So I would say mentoring to make sure you do history. Number two, make sure you talk about failures. And then I thirdly, I think, talk about dreams.

What is it that you're dreaming about? What are you thinking about? Because it's really important to.

If you stop dreaming and you just try to start living on memories, that's not a good sign in leadership, administrative. So I think keep your dreams alive.

And one of the ways that we do that is, again, if we provide ourselves with this spiritual nourishment, keep our spiritual immune system has to be kept up, and we keep that up with scripture and feeding ourselves and making sure that.

I think that we need to really think about what are the things I can do to strengthen my spiritual immune system so that I can continue to dream, I can continue to live. And that's one of the ways I developed the word hope.

Hope has been a really big word in my life because that's believing that tomorrow is going to be better than today.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:30:05

Yeah.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:30:06

And when I lose that, a downward spiral starts. And I have to say, I can see what's happening here.

So those are three areas that I would say really focus on in mentoring would be the history of the history, our history, maybe any failures that we've had and learning to keep the dream alive.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:30:29

Dr. Roden, you mentioned that not being trapped, but letting our past shape us, but not trap us. What does that look like practically?

And because that really, man, that really jumped out to me because I love the way you're saying that. It doesn't trap us, but it does shape us. Could you just share a little bit more about that?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:30:50

I think the power of story that let me just take a moment to say so. My mother and my stepfather were both killed when I was 2 years old. A grandmother took me into her home. Had no brothers and sisters.

We were what people would call poor.

We had a little frame house in North Florida, didn't have any electricity, no running water, had an outdoor bathroom and we had very little money to live on. But so that, that's not the best setting to start life in.

But I had a grandmother, you know, who would say to me, hey Bob, we're going to make it, we'll keep going. My grandmother was a wonderful Christian lady.

And I think if I had, if I had wanted to, I could have grown up feeling sorry for myself but somehow saying, you know what? I had a grandmother who told me it's going to be better. And something was built into me, something in my DNA that I can't explain any other way.

That it must have been God given to say, I'm not going to let all this trap be. I always wanted to do better. I had this sense of, hey, I want to do better and I can do something about it.

See, hope is not only believing tomorrow is going to be better than today, but it's believing I could do something about it. I can take some steps. That's what I mean by don't let it trap you. Don't let your thinking get into a victim mentality. I'm just a victim.

You know, for instance, when I say spread your, spread your spiritual wings, when a bird is on a branch and that branch gives way, they fly, they put their wings, they get going. Rather than criticizing the branch are complaining that hey, the branch broke. They say, no, I've got these wings.

I think God has given to every one of us what we need in any given situation and to not be trapped by it, but to somehow let it shape us. Into what?

Because I have an appreciation today for people who may be grown up in very poverty type situations or difficult place, difficult family situations. There's a better ending to the story of my life.

I've, I've found some more family through the years and, but, but again, it's just important to not be trapped by all that, but let it shape you.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:33:33

Yeah, it's a good word I really appreciate and I love the way you frame that. It's not forgetting it, but it's like you said, not letting it. Not letting us trap. Let it trap us. And what such. Such an encouragement.

I really, really appreciate it. You know, being a spiritual leader implies trusting and being trusted. So we're trusting in others and others are trusting in us.

How have you learned over in the different seasons of life to build and maintain trust? So giving trust to others and then also so that people can trust you. Does that make sense?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:34:09

Yeah. Well, I think one of the first things is to do what you say. Let your actions match your words and your promises.

When I left west end after 22 years being there and I became the district superintendent, a teenage girl came up to me and she said, pastor, I want to thank you for one thing, more than one, but one I want to thank you for. You did what you said you were going to do.

Now, I'm not suggesting I always did that, and I don't mean to hold myself up as an example in that, but that. That really touched me that she was listening, apparently listening to what we said. She said, you did what you said you were going to do.

I think it's also better to under promise and over deliver. Yeah, that. Than to over promise and under deliver. You know, it is very good.

The over promise can be a salesman type mentality, you know, that we have. We should have more of a nurturing, caring kind of thing and let the circumstances go.

So I think for ourselves to build trust, we have to say what we do, what we say we're going to do. I think something as simple as being on time is important. Pastor Ira Stanville taught me that. As a young youth pastor, I was often late to meetings.

And one day I met him for lunch and I was late again. And I sat down at the table and he said to me, bob, do you believe the Bible? I said, yes. Yes, sir. He said, then stop stealing my time. Wow. Wow.

I mean, I've never forgotten that. I was about 21 at the time, 22. I mean, here it is, you know, 60 years later, and I still remember that. Stop stealing my time.

Now, there are always reasons why we can't make something on time. There are exceptions to all of that. But I think we build trust by simply doing what we say.

Paying attention to boundaries, respecting other people, treating them the way you want to be treated. That's how I think we build it in our own lives, you know, for other people. The. I think if we.

If we build trust in our own lives first, then it's easier to start having trusted Other people, because I say, well, I'm going to believe they're going to be doing the same thing. So when someone. Someone breaks that trust. I had that happen. It's been a couple years ago now with someone, excuse me.

It was a young pastor, and he did something that he. You broke the trust that we had. We. We've talked about it. I even did a podcast with him. And I said to him, you've broken trust.

I want you to know I forgive you. But it will take a little while to build that trust back. I don't think you immediately restore trust.

I think you give them an opportunity to demonstrate that there's been a change and that's happened. That person has, over a period of time, has rebuilt that trust. So, I mean, Jesus did with the Apostle Peter.

I mean, Peter disappointed him, he denied him. But Jesus gives him a second chance. How cool is that? How cool is that? And he gives him a second chance there in John, chapter 21, where on the beach.

So they're bringing his fish in and he says, let's have breakfast together on the beach. And then he turns to Peter and says, hey, do you love me? Three times he says it for the three times he didn't, that Peter denied him.

But I think we have to give people a second chance on the trust thing and sometimes a third chance as well. But there are. There can be patterns that develop. But we. I think we learn to build trust in ourselves, then it helps us to trust other people.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:38:21

Yeah, that's a good word. One more question for you, and then I'm going to ask you to share about your podcast, and then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

So my last question for you. I've heard you share about the power. Power of listening. How does discernment guide you when you. When to listen and when to speak?

So I've heard you share about the power of listening. How does discernment guide you on when to listen and when to speak?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:38:48

Yeah, you know, I think when we're listening, we have to listen not only with our ear, but with our heart.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:38:56

Wow.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:38:58

You know, I can hear what you're saying, but if I'm also. If my heart is listening, so I call it double listening. Listening with your ear and listening with your heart.

And when you're listening to people, if you wait for them to ask a question before you begin to inject, then they're inviting you in. It is easy. And I have to struggle with this at times where they're saying something and I'm saying, hey, I got the answer for that.

You don't want to jump right in, but if you can just wait, let them, let them express themselves. And most of the time people will somehow they'll ask you a question or something, which gives you an opportunity.

I was talking with someone recently and we'd had a conversation and at the end of the conversation, this person said, hey, I want to give you an invitation to speak into my life as you feel led to. I'm openly giving you the invitation. And it's because we'd had a listening time together and sharing.

And so I think learning to listen with our ear, you know, for facts, information, but learning to listen with our heart, for feelings and what, what might be going on in, inside of that person. You, you never know what kind of day they've had, what they've been through, what they're really trying to say. So listen.

And listening is, you know, I think that's something we just have to work on all of our lives. But the Bible says we're slow to speak, we're being quick to listen to people we need to hear. And I think that's our instruction as we go along.

Not easy to do, but it's very, very difficult because most of us like to hear ourselves talk.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:40:53

We do. And I would imagine, Dr. Rudin, you've seen many of the situations play out, so you've probably seen it. And yeah, I've seen this before.

This is the solution. So I think it would be a challeng challenging because you've seen many of these things play out and you, you do have the wisdom to speak into them.

But as you said, to listen, man. I really appreciated that with listening, with our ears and with our heart. That's, that's a challenge for me and really appreciate the encouragement.

So you, you host a podcast, Hope Rising. Could you share about Hope Rising?

You've shared throughout this one about your, your focus on hope, but share just a little about your podcast Hope Rising and then I'm going to ask you to pray for us here.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:41:35

It's probably a couple of years ago now that my daughter in law who's principal of a, of an elementary school here in Henrico county in Glen Allen, Virginia, she gave me a book called Hope as a Science.

And the county was using that book as a, as a book for all the teachers and staff to read for the year because they felt like kids who come to school often need to have hope. They might come out of really difficult situations. And she said to me, she calls me dad. She said, dad, I think you really enjoy reading this book.

Well, I never thought of hope as a science. I always thought it was hope out of that. I thought, wow, this is pretty neat that it can make a difference to people because hope has been my theme.

Psalm: 71:14

As a matter of fact, at West End, I preached on hope so much they call me Bob Hope at times, you know, just. And so that's why she gave me this book on hope. Well, as I was reading this book, I got.

I thought, I wonder if maybe I could do a way to speak to people and the work or wherever that might just a three minute kind of inspirational thought that would give them hope. So it was about that time that I got a call from a guy named Peter Englert. Peter was in a group that I was with at Valley Forge. I did a mentoring.

We called it an innovative Leadership Experience where we took 10 students and we brought them down to Washington D.C. and introduced them to Christian leaders. He called me, he said, hey, I haven't talked to you for years. What are you doing?

I said, oh, Peter, it's nice to hear from you. And I said, you know, I've been thinking about doing this podcast, Peter. And I thought, I don't know how to do a podcast where my head.

He said, you're talking to the right person. He said, I do a podcast. I can help you. And Peter helped me do this that I had another friend who helped to get it all set up.

And so for a year I did these weekly podcast over three minutes on different. For one month I do on a certain topic about hope. And then we started interviewing, having conversations with people. And so now we just from a.

Once a month we do a. An interview with somebody like you and I are doing here today and just talk about hope within what. What's going on in their life. So that's.

That's how I got interested in doing a podcast. I don't know how long I'll be doing this. I.

Like I said, I've been around the sun 82 times that I never dreamed I would be doing some initiative like this now. But you know, as long as I have breath, I'm gonna. I'm gonna serve the Lord in some way. I'm gonna love him and serve him till I go home to heaven.

It's just a. Just a joy to be able to connect with other people.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:44:37

Amen. Amen. Will you pray for us?

Dr. Rhoden: 00:44:40

I'd love to hear. Let me just. Could I just say to you I'm grateful for the way God's hand is on your life and for the initiative you've taken.

Reach out to other people. And it is. It is a joy to be with you today and to be able to pray for you now. And for that, God's favor would continue on your life.

And it would meet all your needs. So thank you again for this wonderful opportunity.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:45:04

Thank you.

Dr. Rhoden: 00:45:07

Lord. We thank you that every good and perfect gift comes down from above, from you, with whom there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Thank you, Lord, that you're the God who knows how to part the Red Sea when it's time. You're the God who knows how to shut the mouth of lions when it's necessary. You're the God who knows how to speak to a storm. And it can be calm.

You're a faithful God. Thank you today, Lord, for your hand upon Aaron. Thank you, Lord. You've called him into ministry. Thank you, Lord, for his heart to reach out to you.

I pray, Lord, you'd keep a. Keep a compass in his heart so he's always drawn to you. We thank you, O Lord, for the magnet that you'll also put in his heart.

So that in every way that compass and magnet together will draw him to you and give him direction. We thank you today, Lord, that we can trust you for what you're going to do in his life.

Thank you for the fact that he wants to serve you with his whole heart. I thank you for the level of sacrifice he's been through. And I pray now, Lord, that you'd canopy over him.

O God, would you canopy over Aaron and his family with your divine presence and with your favor and your blessing? May the favor of the Lord our God be upon you, Aaron, and upon your family. May he establish the work of your hands.

And may the words of your mouth and the meditations of your heart always be pleasing in his sight. In Jesus, mighty name I pray Amen and amen. Amen.