RT Kendall on Total Forgiveness
Pastor and Author RT Kendall joins the podcast today to have an engaging and timely conversation on Total Forgiveness and the impact it can have on each of our lives.
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Transcript
Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast. This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission. And my name is Aaron Santmyire and I get to be your host.
Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on a podcast. RT Kendall. Many of you know that he was.
He was a pastor for many years in England also now as a writer and just a gem of somebody to sit down and have a conversation with first.
You know, I had read his books in the past, but the first time I got to hear him speak and share was this summer when we were in Springfield and he shared with the missionaries that were there. I was included in that on the subject and the topic of total forgiveness, it was something that resonated with me. I think it really sunk.
It really was one of those times when the Holy Spirit just speaks to you and said, you know, I have you here for this reason, to hear this message.
And it was something that I've really valued, something that I've replayed over my heart and mind for many weeks that after reread the book, after his message and then had the opportunity to sit down and have a conversation with him. Glenn Smith was there, one of my friends and colleagues, and he helped make the connection. But really appreciate RT being on the podcast.
Really appreciate him spending some time with me and just his investment. He'll share about the anointing and how bitterness and unforgiveness can block the anointing in our life.
And I think we all want the anointing in our life. He'll share the difference between what reconciliation is and what it's not and what total forgiveness really is and how it's a life sentence.
It's not just I do it one day and I'm done, but it's something we daily need to forgive and the importance of that. Just really, really valued him being on the podcast. Do want to ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.
I know the ones that I subscribe to are the ones I listen to. They come out at the beginning of the week. I know what I'm going to be listening to throughout the week.
Also excited just for my new book that's coming out at Caring Family.
It's a book that shares the seven virtues that I wish that I would have focused more when I was raising my kids and really wish I would have read this book or somebody would have had this conversation with me 20 years ago. Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Aaron Santmyire:So here we go. Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast. So excited to be here today with a new friend of the podcast, RT Kendall.
Rt, welcome to the podcast.
RT Kendall:I'm honored to be here. Thank you for inviting me, RT.
Aaron Santmyire:I have read many of your books and then a few weeks ago had the opportunity to get to meet you in Springfield, Missouri.
And for many of those who were not there, I thought, man, if we could spend some time together and learn once again from you to be able to get the message out, it would be phenomenal. On so for those who were not there, will you share a little bit about yourself? We were talking about our roots.
I'm from West Virginia, you're from Kentucky. Will you share a little bit about yourself before we jump into some conversation?
RT Kendall:Well, I'm from Ashland, Kentucky. And then I was brought up in the Church of the Nazarene. And then while I was at Triveca Nazarene College, I felt the call to preach.
And three months later, I'm a student pastor of a Nazarene church in Palmer, Tennessee. And then one Monday morning, on my way from Palmer back to Nashville, I had a Damascus Road experience. It was not my conversion.
It was what I would call my baptism of the Holy Spirit. I had a vision of Jesus. My theology changed and I've never been the same since. Wow.
But then to fast forward, I ended up going to seminary, Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville. And then I did well there academically and they recommended me for Oxford and I go there and do my doctorate.
And while I'm at Oxford, I'm invited to preach at Westminster Chapel in London. And I stayed for 25 years.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow.
RT Kendall:And then we retired over 20 years ago. And now I just travel the world.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow. Wow.
Aaron Santmyire:That is quite a, quite a story. From Ashland, Kentucky to around the world, what was one of the greatest joys of pastoring in London?
RT Kendall:Well, you. It wasn't just London. The fact that I was at Westminster Chapel meant that I spoke to the world.
There are, I think, two or three churches in London that it would call it World Churches.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And Westminster Chapel was one of those. So visitors who would come to London, many of them would choose to come to Westminster Chapel.
And then, not only that, but all of my sermons were recorded. And to this day, you could still get them. Over 3,250 sermons. Wow. If you run out of something to do, you can hear the.
For 25 years, I was the pastor and it was a great honor. You, you spoke to the world, but it was also just a church.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:They had deacons And. And I was voted in, like, you know, it. It's just an independent evangelical church.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:Wow.
Aaron Santmyire:RT when. Now we were communicating, I. I wanted to just ask you, like, I shared about the message on total forgiveness.
And it's a book that I had read in the past, heard that you. You shared it, and you challenged me once again to not that day not to just listen to it once, but to put it in practice again and again and again.
Can you kind of share a little bit about the. How laid this, this, this. This subject of total forgiveness on your heart?
RT Kendall:Well, that's not the way it happened.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:He didn't lay it on my heart. What happened was it was born in my darkest hour. Louise and I endured the greatest suffering of my lifetime.
Those 25 years were the best of times, the worst of times, to quote Charles Dickens.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And we went through the greatest trial we've ever had. What happened was unexpected, unfair, unjust. My future was bleak. And I wondered, how can this happen? Why would God let this happen?
And I couldn't tell anybody what happened. It was just awful. An old friend from Romania, his name is Joseph Tone, spelled T O N, pronounced son, happened to be in London.
And because I knew he wouldn't tell anybody, I thought, I'll tell Joseph what they did. And if I'm totally honest, I only told him so he'd put his arm around me and say, well, rt, you ought to be angry. Get it out of your system. That's.
That was my motive.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:That's what I expected. If I could narrow 25 years in London down to 15 minutes, they would be my finest hour.
It's when Josephson looked at me and I can hear him now in his Romanian accent, you must totally forgive them. Until you totally forgive them, rt, you will be in chains. Release them, and you will be released. Well, nobody ever talked to me like that in my life.
Faithful to the wounds of a friend. I said, joseph, I can't. He said, you can and you must.
It's the hardest thing I've ever, ever had to do, is when you actually go against nature and you cross into the supernatural, when you can totally forgive, even to the extent you pray for them. And when you pray, you just don't bow your head and say, lord, I commit them to you. You actually ask God to bless them and mean it.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And. And that was not easy for me, but I did it.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And I've never been the same since. And I've had challenges over the years when this had to be renewed. But it's the key to my own anointing.
If, if I didn't live that I would be sidelined. God would just say, you're finished. And so in order to maintain anointing, I mean, that's what I've had to do.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And I mean, that's just it.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:There's no loophole for me. I can't say, well, Lord, you know, this wasn't fair. You see, we all have a story to tell.
And most of us will think, well, in my case, in my case, I wouldn't have to forgive. But there's no loopholes. We have to do it. That is, if we want to please the Lord.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
Aaron Santmyire:Few questions for you. You talked, you shared that this is something supernatural, this idea, and it goes against kind of what we would humanly want to do.
Can you share just a little bit more about the supernatural reality of this forgiveness and the importance of it?
RT Kendall:Well, you see, you're going against nature. And once you forgive.
And I have a sermon on it, I've written a book on it, and then I've narrowed it down to a 30, 40 minute sermon which I deal with how, you know, you have forgiven.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And in order to measure up to this, it's based upon the life of Joseph and what he had to do because he had brothers that were going to kill him and he had to forgive them. But when he did, God says, well, you're ready now. He becomes prime minister of Egypt.
And I think those who forgive, the reward is so great that it almost becomes selfish at first. You know, it's the hardest thing we ever had to do. When you see what it does for you, you think, my word, this is too good.
And just to give you an example, there was until a year ago, and I think it still might be there. I haven't looked something on the Internet about me that's not true at all. It's, it's, it's a lie.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:And I know who put it on.
And a friend of mine, when he saw it, he said, rt, you can get that change, you know, and another man came in and says, I am in touch with the man who deals with that. I can have it change in one minute. And my reply was, I prefer the anointing.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow.
RT Kendall:Because what if I had it removed and maybe 10 people notice just because I don't want it on there? It's better that if a thousand people read it and think the worst.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:I have the blessing of God.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:You see, there's no comparison there's no comparison. So it is selfish because I want a greater anointing. Now, that wouldn't matter to some people. It's everything. That's what I live for.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:Without the anointing, you wouldn't want to listen to me. You wouldn't read any of my books. You wouldn't want to. So it is. It's in my interest. But that's the key.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:Total forgiveness. And I'm not exaggerating. I mean, this is literally. It's transparent honesty.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And. But I want everybody to know God will do it for you, whoever you are.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And you are the loser if you look for excuses that you don't have to do it.
Aaron Santmyire:Rt. What does the anointing look like? It. You shared about the anointing. In your life, when you share some people, maybe they're.
They're wondering, what does he exactly mean when he talks about the anointing?
RT Kendall:Well, I define anointing a little different than I think some would. I call it the power of the spirit that makes your gift function with ease. You live outside your anointing and you struggle at least to burnout.
Romans 12:3. We live within the measure of our faith. The word measure comes from the Greek word metro, which means limit.
It's the same word used which says, jesus had the Holy Spirit without limit. Well, it's the same word. So there is a limit to my anointing. I've got to live within that.
If I try to go outside that and try to pretend I have a prophetic gift when I don't, or a healing gift, and I don't, and I think, well, I wish I could be like so. And so I wish I could have their gift. And I had to reckon to the fact that I was no Martin Lloyd Jones that I followed. He put me there.
He was the greatest preacher since Spurgeon. He's a Welsh orator. Nobody can preach like that. And I had to come to terms. Well, I'm not Martin Lloyd Jones. I'm no Jonathan Edwards. I'm just me. Yeah.
Oh, dear, oh, dear. This is a downer. But this is where the freedom is. You live within your anointing, and that's what enables your gift to function.
And you want me to tell you what my anointing is? I'm a Bible teacher. Yeah, that's it. I'd like to have a prophetic gift where I could call out people.
I'd love to have them come forward and they go to the floor or get healed and maybe one day God will give me that. But at the moment, I am a Bible teacher, and that is my anointing. And God uses me as long as I stay there.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:Does that make sense to you?
Aaron Santmyire:100%. 100%. And thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And it definitely clarifies it. Rt when it comes to total forgiveness. What. What does that look like?
RT Kendall:You.
Aaron Santmyire:You share what it is and what it's not. And so could you. Could you share just a little bit of how somebody knows if they're in total forgiveness?
RT Kendall:Well, I have seven points. I could just list them one at a time and you ask me. Or I could. I'll leave it to you. Let's. Let's put it this way.
The first proof, and it's perhaps the hardest on the list that you have totally forgiven, is that you tell nobody what they did to you.
You see, the first thing we want to do when we're hurt is to tell about the person who hurt us, because we cannot bear the thought that the world doesn't know what this person has done to me.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And I want. I want to spill the goods on them. And you see, that violates the principle.
Our sins are forgiven as far as the east is from the west so far, our transgressions removed from us. And then when I turn around and tell what you've done to me, God says, whoa. How would you like for me to tell what I know about you?
And the first evidence of total forgiveness is that you don't tell anybody what they did. Nobody. Nobody. Zero. Oh, there is one exception. I had a lady that kind of came into the vestry at Westminster Chapel and said, they found my rapist.
And I said, well, what about it? Well, she says, they want me to testify in a court of law. I said, well, you must. Oh, Dr. Kendall, you've taught me to forgive, and I've forgiven him.
I said, that's wonderful. I believe you, but this is different. A crime must be reported.
And the other exception would be you need to tell one other person, one other person what they did for therapeutic reasons. And I'm glad I told Joseph Tone. I mean, I'm. But I learned from that. I can't tell anybody else. So people have asked me.
They'll say, what is it you had to forgive? I said, find out in heaven. By the way, I'll add something that's not in my book.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:I'm not even sure I told it the other day when you heard me speak, because this only came up about six months ago. Do you Know, I thought I'd covered everything. And I was looking again at what Stephen did when they stoned him.
And his final words were, lord, lay not this into their charge. And I have often said that's the key to his anointing. I believe it. But I saw something I'd never seen. It's right there, but I just hadn't seen it.
That means he was praying that the people who did this don't ever get punished for it.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow.
RT Kendall:He says, lay not this into their charge so that they're not. He's actually praying. Don't go after them.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And here's the thing. It convicted me, because what has helped me to forgive is when I would think, well, in the. In heaven, they'll find out. And that will be a great day.
I can't wait to see the look on everybody's faces where they find out the truth. Yeah, that's. You see, here, I'll. I'll show you why, I'll read a verse to you. 1 Corinthians 4, verse 5.
I'm sure you know it, but this is what held me for years. I thought to myself, well, I can wait till we get to heaven. I'll tell nobody here, nobody here, but in heaven, they'll find out.
Because Paul himself said, it's a small thing for you to judge me. He says, but just wait when God brings everything to light. And that will be, you see, when we stand before God.
And I think that will be the day, then I realize if I take Stephen as my model, I've got to pray that my enemy will not even be exposed at the judgment and that he doesn't get found out. Then I'm actually praying, Lord, laying all this into the charge. Don't let him ever get caught.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow.
RT Kendall:And I. I struggled.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:But then after a little short time, I would say for a few hours about total forgiveness. That's what Stephen had. I want Stephen's anointing. And if that's what you have to do to get it, that means that even in heaven, nobody finds out.
Now, if God wants to do that in heaven, that's up to him.
Aaron Santmyire:Sure.
RT Kendall:But from my point of view, Stephen's point of view, I pray that they don't even get caught, then that means. But I'll tell you what. It gave me more freedom than I've ever had.
So that is, if there's a better word than total forgiveness, tell me what it is, and I'll use it. Totally, totally forgiving them.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:Wow. So that. That's so that's what, in my opinion, is a sign that you want more of the Holy Spirit than anything in the world.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow. And yeah, it's a, it, it's. And I think the challenge of it is, RT is, is you're living it out. It's a conversation to say I'm going to do this.
But just as you say, we want to just justify, hold a grudge against, point fingers at. And it's when we actually have to put it into action.
I think that's where, that's where the challenging, that's where the rubber meets a road or where the challenging part of that is.
RT Kendall:And you've got to keep doing it. See, it's a life sentence. You got to do it. You, you, you, you, you can't just do it. Well, I did it yesterday, that's enough.
You got to do it today, you go do it tomorrow. And the people that I still to this day have to pray, they're, they're alive. They have no idea, they have no idea that I pray for them every day.
And maybe even in heaven, they won't find out. I don't know. Right. And I know this, this is the way to freedom and anointing and I don't tell everybody they've got to do what I do.
That's, you know, it's up to you. Yeah, but this is, this is what has set me free.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
Aaron Santmyire:RT you shared about the story of Joseph and some things that you, you, you've pulled out of those scriptures and how you've learned from him. What are some other things you, you shared that he, you know, he didn't tell it, he doesn't tell anybody. And how he interacts with his, his brothers.
Could you share just a little bit about that?
RT Kendall:Well, in the case of Joseph, I mean, I can go back to those points. Point number one, you don't tell anybody what they did.
That's why Joseph had his brothers, but he forgave them, had everybody leave the room so that nobody in Egypt would ever find out what these 11 brothers did to their prime minister 20 some years ago. And Joseph wanted to make sure nobody in Egypt would ever know what they did. Yeah, that's the principle. That's where I got the idea.
You don't tell anybody. Second, you don't let them be afraid of you. Don't be nervous around you. Third, you don't throw it up to them and let them know how hurt you are.
You see, what really gets our goat is when the people that have hurt us don't know we're hurt. Wow. We want to tell them so. Well, I want, you know, you, you really hurt me. You, you don't even get to do that.
You don't even go up to say to them, well, I, I want you to know that I, I'm praying for you. I've forgiven you. And they'll say, but what? Well, you know, it's a way of, you know, hurting them again.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:The people, as I said that I pray for, they don't know I'm hurt. They don't have that clue, and I'm not allowed to do it. And the fourth proof is. So you let them save face. That's an oriental expression.
Aaron Santmyire:Sure.
RT Kendall:What you cover for them instead of rubbing their noses in it. You, you make it look like you don't even know what they did. Or make it easy for them to make him look like God was in the whole thing.
And Joseph said to his brothers, you didn't do this. God did it.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:I mean, they can't believe their luck that the man they were going to kill is now saying God's behind it all.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And the fifth principle, you don't reveal their darkest secret because most of us know something about somebody, if we were to tell it, could, could destroy them.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And their dark secret is they took that coat of many colors off Joseph's back, dipped it in blood, took it to old Jacob, made him think Joseph was dead. They would rather die. They would rather die than have to tell their dad that.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And Joseph do that. He wouldn't let him tell it. He wouldn't let him tell him. And then proof number six, it's a life sentence. You. You've got to do it forever.
And I mean literally forever. People say, well, after I've done it for a few days, it's done. Not if you want the anointing. You keep doing it. And so 17 years later, old Jacob died.
Turns out Joseph still forgave him. It was, it was, it wasn't just a one off for one day.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:It was real. And then he said, I will bless you. I will keep looking after you. And you pray for them and actually pray that God will bless them.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And those are the principles that I teach.
Aaron Santmyire:And when it comes to rt, it's many of the people listening into this have children or maybe it's their spouse. You know, sometimes we feel like we.
When somebody's hurt our children or somebody's hurt our spouse, a family member, it can maybe even be harder than to forgive somebody that's hurt us. Personally, I would.
I think I would say that as a father, you know, if somebody hurt one of my kids, this would be really hard versus if they would hurt me. It would still be hard to forgive and walk in that, but I'm committed to do that.
Any wisdom that you could share when it comes to when something happens to our children or a spouse and how we can continue to walk in total forgiveness.
RT Kendall:Well, one Sunday morning at Westminster, when I was leading the worship and a woman came in the back door, sat on the fourth row from the back. That woman has done irreparable emotional damage to one of our children. And when I saw her, I just. I lost it. I was so upset.
I was so angry that I couldn't even lead the worship. I just had to act like I was doing them, mouthing the words, and I had to read the scripture. I don't know how I did it in those days.
The pastor prayed a long time. I kept up the old tradition. And you prayed eight or nine to ten minutes? Yeah, I did it.
How I got through that, you know, when I get to heaven, I want to see a video replay my prayer that morning is. All I was doing is trying to get through it.
What saved me was offering time when a deacon comes up and welcomes the visitors, makes the announcements, says the morning offering will be received. And I'm sitting there next to the pulpit, and I've got about four or five minutes to get my thoughts. And because I.
I was so upset, something happened. Never before, never since the Holy Spirit went into a conversation with me, and I wasn't prepared for this.
And I don't say this is verbatim, but it's. It's pretty close. I heard these words, which would you rather have revival or for me to send judgment on that woman out there?
And I thought it would really be good if the Lord said judgment on her. But I. I said, no, I want revival. You sure? Yes, I want revival. Then I want you to pray for that woman right now. I said, I pray for her.
He said, that's not good enough. Ask me to bless her. Bless her. Say it again. Bless her. Say it again. Bless her. And what if I answer your prayer and I bless her?
I said, lord, you wouldn't do that, would you? And that's the point. And I had to start saying, bless her. Bless her. Bless her.
And to prove that I meant it, I had to put her on my prayer list the next day. And I prayed for her every day for years.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow. Wow.
RT Kendall:At the result of that was a greater anointing than I've ever had. People ask me how I've written all these books. They think it's my education. They think it's my brain. It is not at all. It's the anointing.
I've never had the Bible, so open up to me. I see things even to this day. I saw something this week I never saw before.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow.
RT Kendall:It's the anointing. See, I'm a Bible teacher, and that's what God gives me, that. Sure. Now you be.
You may be a lawyer doctor, you may be a truck driver, but there's a gift you have that nobody else has. And God will use that gift, and it just happens, minus the Bible teacher.
So an anointing in my case just gives me insight into scripture and I've got more books in me left if I live long enough.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
Aaron Santmyire:RT when it comes to total forgiveness and then reconciliation, you kind of delineate what that, the difference between the two. Would you take a few minutes to just. And help us understand the difference between total forgiveness and reconciliation and how they interpl.
RT Kendall:Well, they're not the same.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:In fact, in some cases, total forgiveness can result in reconciliation. That's possible, but sometimes it shouldn't.
If your wife sleeps with your best friend, you have to forgive her and him, but you don't go on vacation together.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:If a child molester is. Gets caught, you forgive him, but you don't let him teach at Sunday school class.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay?
RT Kendall:See, that's the principle. And so there's no grudge, you forgive them. But you, you've got to be realistic.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And so it's. In some cases, reconciliation works and it's good. Some cases it can't work. You see what I mean?
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Santmyire:It's, it's. And I think you share also that reconciliation desires, the desire has to be for both people.
And sometimes reconciliation, forgiveness is something that we can do personally. But reconciliation takes two people with the desire to forgive each other and walk in that forgiveness. Is that correct?
RT Kendall:Yeah. It's got to work two ways.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:It can't always help it if they won't reconcile.
Aaron Santmyire:And if, yeah, if they don't, they don't have that, they don't have that same, same desire within their hearts. The Lord's Prayer, when. The Lord's Prayer is something else that you highlighted it.
It also helps us when it comes to learning to walk in total forgiveness. When you think of the Lord's Prayer, how does, how does that help you? RT and how can it help us?
RT Kendall:Well, first of all, it's a prayer that I think should be prayed. Some churches do it publicly. We did it. Westminster Chapel. I did it every Sunday for 25 years. And I'm recommended.
But you might like to know, but my wife and I prayed every day for years. We pray it every day. Wow.
And to let you know, what was the most important part of the Lord's Prayer is that after he gave it in the Sermon on the Mount, he only comes back on one point, and he says, if you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your heavenly father forgive you your trespasses. So it shows that when we pray the Lord's Prayer, never forget the point that Jesus is making.
And that doesn't mean you don't take all the others seriously. You do, but that is the main thing, because it's the hardest thing we ever have to do.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And it's the greatest need of the church today is forgiveness.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
Aaron Santmyire:And the other thing we see, I would say I see in the church today is maybe more. We're kind of critical. And people that are leading, I think it's harder to lead than probably that ever has been.
And people criticize, critique, whether that's the sermon you. You're. You're. You're sharing, or whether that is a decision that is made.
How does total forgiveness help us respond to people that are being critical of us and not hold a grudge when it comes to their criticism?
RT Kendall:Well, it's hard. Very, very hard.
And I don't know if you know about this, but about a third of the way in my 25 years at Westminster, I had some of the deacons turn against me, and they tried to get me fired, and they lost, and the church fired them.
But they would still come to church and they would take notes on my preaching, and you'd see them every time I would make an unguarded comment, their pen would work. They're looking for something. Yeah. And it's not easy, but it's good for you. It's good. It keeps you on your toes.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:And in other words, there is some advantage to having an enemy. Keep you sharp. And of course, remember this. Don't despise the means God uses to get you more godly.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:See these. I mean, there is more than one person who has hurt me deeply. And when I found out how. Hope this will make you smile.
When I found out how much blessing I got from forgiving my enemies, I just thought maybe the more the better. And I. And I. I Do have an. Honestly, an enemy's prayer list. I prayed it this morning. I do. Every day.
Trying to think where there's five or six, I think I pray for my name. And some of these are names you would recognize.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And I'm not allowed to tell you who it is. Ever.
Aaron Santmyire:Sure.
RT Kendall:But you see, these. These men are a blessing to me and heaven. I'll thank them.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
Aaron Santmyire:I think the other challenge I have is when we've. When we were walking in the anointing and you shared that God is anointed you to be a Bible teacher, and that's. That's evident.
And when people criticize that when you're walking in the anointing that God has given you, sometimes that can, at least for me personally, can be a little more challenging. You know, I mean, if they don't like the shirts I wear or they don't, you know, they don't like the. This may be the way I handle this or do that.
But when you're walking in what you feel God has anointed you to do and they're critical of that, it is. It is a challenge not to react, you know, to respond to them in a Christlike manner. Does that make sense?
RT Kendall:Yeah. But they're going to find something.
Aaron Santmyire:It's true.
RT Kendall:In my, My case, one or two of the deacons was pretty obvious because I'm an American. See, I don't know if you know this, but to be an American and pastor a church in England, that's a challenge.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:I never will forget the first day we lived in England. I went into this news agent and to buy a newspaper. I said, sure. Good to be here. May I help you, please? I said, oh, it's just nice to see you.
Did you want to buy the paper, in other words? I tried to be friendly.
Aaron Santmyire:Wasn't interested.
RT Kendall:Oh. That was my first taste. The English don't like the Americans. Now, there are exceptions. If they find out you're Canadian, it's easier.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:I had a friend say, tell them you're Canadian.
Aaron Santmyire:And forsake your Kentucky upbringing. Huh?
RT Kendall:But I had three years at Oxford.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And then I was asked to be at Westminster Chapel and I got a little bit more Anglicized.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And. And 99 of the people loved me. Yeah, they did. It wasn't a problem. But there was 1% didn't. And that was part of the reason.
I think one or two of the deacons just couldn't. Couldn't bear me.
Aaron Santmyire:Couldn't get past him. Rt I have one more Question for you. And then I would love for you, love for you to pray for us.
There's been times in my life where I thought I had forgiven somebody. But then I also noticed that there was some bitterness in my heart. How does, how does that bitterness that comes out in total forgiveness.
Can you just share how total forgiveness impacts bitterness? And when maybe somebody's listening in, that was like me that struggled with bitterness in the past, they said, yes, I forgive them.
But you could just feel some tension emotionally when it came to somebody or situation. Is that a fair question?
RT Kendall:It sure is. First, it's not easy. And no one get the idea that, oh, no problem, I forgive you. You know, they.
People that can do that, they don't know what it is to have somebody betray you or tell a lie about you or out to destroy you. And we have to face things like that. First of all, you need some good theology.
Now, I don't know what you're going to say to what I'm going to say right now. You don't need to comment. But Jeremiah 17, 9, the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. Who can know it? We never outgrow that.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay?
RT Kendall:There are some who say, oh, well, you're a Christian now, that's Old Testament. Okay, let's go to the New Testament. 1 John 1:8. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
So the fact is, you're never going to be perfect. And so the flesh struggles against the spirit. So don't beat yourself black and blue because it's a problem.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay?
RT Kendall:It is a problem. And then the one thing we haven't discussed today, you've got an enemy, the devil.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And he is going to remind you in the middle of the night, 2:00 in the morning of something that will just get you all churned up and you can't go back to sleep. Remind you of what they did, and you get all upset, you fight it.
And when Paul said, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, well, we do that too, he said, but his problem was the devil. Well, the devil's going to remind you. Now, this is very important. There's a verse in 2 Corinthians, chapter 2, verse 11. Not in my book.
I just, you know, I learned so much since I wrote the book. I wish I could. 2 Corinthians 2, 11. We forgive lest the devil take advantage of us. We're not ignorant of his devices.
So devil is looking 24 hours a day at you. To see how he can get an entrance. And the person who gives into bitterness gives the devil an entry point.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow.
RT Kendall:And he will work his way in. And it gets worse. So I have to say, it's a lifetime thing. Don't think you get over it just because you do it once or twice.
That's why I said life sense. You got to keep it up. You got to keep it up.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:And you can continue to get hurt. And when you think you're over it and then a new development will come up, you think, oh, oh, dear. Hadn't thought of that.
Aaron Santmyire:Yeah.
RT Kendall:You've got to do it again and again. And so it's not easy. Sure it's not.
Aaron Santmyire:And so you're what I hear you say in some ways that we have to forgive ourselves in the sense that if we're feeling like this, there is some forgiveness for ourselves too. Would that. Is that correct?
RT Kendall:Well, actually, I've written three books.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:It's. It's a trilogy.
Aaron Santmyire:Okay.
RT Kendall:Number one, Total forgiveness. Number two, forgiving ourselves. Totally.
Aaron Santmyire:Wow.
RT Kendall:And number three, forgiving God. Not that God's done anything wrong because he's. He's not guilty of anything, but he's all powerful and lets things happen. And we.
Instead of being angry with God, we set him free. He's got a right to do whatever he wants to do. But totally forgiving ourselves can be just as hard as forgiving another person.
And that's why I wrote a second book on it. Sure.
Aaron Santmyire:Good deal. Well, rt, it's been a joy and honor to spend some time with you today. I thank you for your influence in my life. I thank.
For challenging me and encouraging me to grow spiritually in maturity and given. Given me a pathway to. To walk in total forgiveness. Will you pray for us today?
RT Kendall:I am worthy to do so. Unworthy to do so, but I will do so. Heavenly Father, I want to thank you for this man. He's so gracious. I can see it all over him.
And I pray now that what has been spoken you will apply by your Holy Spirit. I'd love to think that what we've done today would reach many, many people and that it would change many, many lives.
That they would never be the same again. That each of them would have a greater anointing than ever. I thank you for your goodness and mercy. Thank you for your patience with us. I think of.
Of the Psalm 103, verse 14. You know our frame. You remember that we are dust. Thank you for understanding that. Now just ask. Apply this word to everyone. Who will listen.
Sprinkle them with the blood of Jesus. Protect them, supply their every need and guide them all. And my brother that has been so nice today, guide him.
By your Holy Spirit, I pray in Jesus name. Amen.
Aaron Santmyire:Amen.
