Sara Dangerfield on Leading Spiritual Hoarders : Creating a Culture of Disciples who Make Disciples
Sara Dangerfield joins the podcast today to discuss her new book Leading Spiritual Hoarders.
Dick Foth returns for another session of Back Channel with Foth. Send questions for Back Channel with Foth to aaron.santmyire@agwmafrica.org
Takeaways:
- Investing deeply in the lives of a select few individuals can yield exponential benefits over time, significantly impacting their growth and development.
- The concept of spiritual hoarding highlights the importance of sharing one's faith rather than merely accumulating knowledge without action.
- A healthy church is characterized by members who take ownership of their faith and actively engage with the surrounding community.
- Walking in obedience to God's calling, even in times of uncertainty, is critical for spiritual leaders and followers alike to grow and serve effectively.
Transcript
Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to be back on the podcast with our friend Dick Foth for another session of Back Channel with Foeth.
Speaker A:And then we're going to jump into our interview with Sarah Dangerfield.
Speaker A:Dick, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you much.
Speaker B:It's a lovely spring day where we are.
Speaker B:How is it where you are?
Speaker A:Ah, it's been lovelier.
Speaker A:Lovelier.
Speaker A:A little bit rainy and a little bit cold.
Speaker A:My patients in the clinic today kept saying it feels like fall.
Speaker A:It doesn't feel like.
Speaker A:It doesn't feel like the summer is coming.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:But anyway, I got my summer shirt on.
Speaker A:I'm celebrating summer whether it feels like it or not.
Speaker A:So, Dick, got a few questions for you today.
Speaker A:First one that was sent in said I was listening to an episode of Back Channel with Foth and you shared that you have learned investing in a few people over a long period of time can have a greater impact.
Speaker A:Can you share more about this?
Speaker B: Back in: Speaker B:It was not public, particularly, or private.
Speaker B:And there were a few folks there who had been there for some years, and they talked about this idea that's found in Matthew 18 about where two or three are gathered.
Speaker B:I show up both paraphrases of Jesus words.
Speaker B:And when you think about that, if you invest more deeply in two or three, the possibilities of that over time become exponential.
Speaker B:You know, it's the challenge we have of sort of laying the scientific method over the kingdom of God is that the scientific method says if it's real, you can measure it.
Speaker B:The kingdom says, well, we measure in a different way.
Speaker B:And I to understand that the kingdom of God was mostly invisible.
Speaker B:You know, it's a, it's planting, right?
Speaker B:It's so it's.
Speaker B:It's plowing the soil and planting and you can't count it.
Speaker B:It's not nickels and noses.
Speaker B:And so this idea of investing deeply in two or three, I mean, that's what, that's what parenting is all about.
Speaker B:That's why parenting is so significant in a child's life.
Speaker B:And if it, if it's done well or even adequately, there's the profound imprints are left on people's lives.
Speaker B:So that's where that thought comes from.
Speaker B:Jesus sends folks out two by two.
Speaker B:He deals with 12, but he really deals very intensively, at least as the record shows, with two or three over a 36 month period.
Speaker B:I think that model doesn't necessarily fit western guidelines for what growth looks like.
Speaker B:But you know, when, when you invest deeply, you get roots and wings.
Speaker B:You help the people around you, whether it's in a family or in a missions agency or any enterprise.
Speaker B:If you get the taproot deep, then it gives possibility for other things.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:I never, you know, I never thought about as you were talking about that.
Speaker A:I've heard you say that invest in, in a few before, but the, the idea of it to family man that, that is, that is the reality is as parents we are investing in a few.
Speaker A:We are investing in a few.
Speaker A:Dick, their follow up question on that was what do you, when, when, when it comes to investing in a few, what's considered a long period of time?
Speaker B:Well, I think if, think about what investment means.
Speaker B:You know, spending can be on consumables and so forth, but investment suggests that there's what business persons called roi, return on investment.
Speaker B:And the, the idea is that since it's not cookie cutter, since it's individual, it looks different in every individual case.
Speaker B:I think there are 47 or 49 interactions that Jesus has in the Gospels if you were to add them up with different people and no two are alike.
Speaker B:So I don't know that I can answer that question very well.
Speaker B:You know, I think we have to ask the question when in their lives did we connect with them?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:If you're the investor.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:When did you connect?
Speaker B:And the, the, the investment impact of walking with a 21 year old for 2 years compared to walking with a 61 year old for 2 years, the impact on the 21 year old is far greater.
Speaker B:I, I went and sat with a dear friend who is on the clock if I can.
Speaker B:All of us are on the clock.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:But, but, but he, he's been told that he doesn't have long on this planet and we sat last Friday and just he shared thoughts and I shared thoughts about each other.
Speaker B:And one of the things we came to is that in our, in our early 30s we were connected in a mission with university students and that moment in time had huge impact in our lives longer than what the time frame would be.
Speaker B:So, so I think we just, we just have to say the how long references a lot of things and, and we just have to sit there and say it depends on the situation.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:And in the seasons.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's, that's excellent, Dick.
Speaker A:It's always a joy to spend time with you on Back Channel with both and always, always gold.
Speaker A:We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Sarah Dangerfield.
Speaker A:We talk about spiritual hoarders.
Speaker A:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker A:So here we go.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to be here today with a new friend of the podcast, Sarah.
Speaker A:Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker D:Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker A:Sarah, will you go ahead and share a little bit about yourself?
Speaker A:Now, Sarah, she's, she's being very kind to me today.
Speaker A:I, I hurt my back before we did this and I had to change it then today I got the time mixed up.
Speaker A:So she's, what I've learned is she's very gracious, so I will give her that.
Speaker A:But Sarah, for those who you've not got to read your book and do not know you yet, will you share a little bit about yourself?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:So my husband and I, we are pastors in North Dakota.
Speaker D:And so we are lead pastors in Minot at a church called Journey Church.
Speaker D:And we've been here about eight years.
Speaker D:Prior to that, we were kids pastors for 15 years, still serving in North Dakota the whole time.
Speaker D:We, we love our state.
Speaker D:We love the people here.
Speaker D:We were very much okay with being kids pastors our entire life and that's what we wanted to do.
Speaker D:And about nine years ago, God decided to have a different conversation with us.
Speaker D:And there's a whole story in that.
Speaker D:But so now we're lead pastors.
Speaker D:And I can say now loving it.
Speaker D:I, I'll share, I'll share more about that, I'm sure.
Speaker D:But we have three kids.
Speaker D:Our daughter is 16 and then our boys are 14 and 12 and they keep us very busy.
Speaker D:And so, yeah, we, other than that, just typical American family, I guess.
Speaker D:Just no dog and white picket fence.
Speaker C:There you go.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:So, and we're gonna, Sarah's written a book called Leading Spiritual Hoarders, so we're gonna jump into that.
Speaker A:But I have a few questions before.
Speaker A:So I get to see what's behind her.
Speaker A:What behind her is a, a map of the, the world there.
Speaker A:So you have, you share in the book that you have a heart for the nations and, and a love for the nations.
Speaker A:Where did this originate?
Speaker A:And can you just kind of share, share about your heart for the nations?
Speaker D:Yeah, it started when I was a kid.
Speaker D:So my mom was born and raised in Minnesota, but my dad was born and raised in Cairo, Egypt.
Speaker D:And so as you can imagine, my childhood was strange.
Speaker D:My mom was a Christian and my dad was a Muslim and I'm sure we can have conversations about that, of why did they get Marri.
Speaker D:Here we are.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And so I was introduced to the globe very quickly because especially growing up in Minnesota in the 80s, nobody looked like my dad.
Speaker D:Everyone was blonde, blue eyed, very white.
Speaker D:And to have this man living in the middle of the state that looked nothing like them.
Speaker D:I mean, as a little kid, I could tell there was something different.
Speaker D:Different.
Speaker D:And so I was introduced to not only Egyptian culture, but Islamic culture.
Speaker D:And so my grandparents, they would send me books all the time about prayer and about their faith.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And so I. I had to figure out very quickly where I was at with my faith because I was getting a lot of pressure from my dad's side.
Speaker D:But thankfully, Jesus made himself very real to me very quickly.
Speaker D:And so I just became very burdene.
Speaker D:My dad, my grandparents, my aunt and uncle and cousins I had never met before, none of them knew Jesus.
Speaker D:They knew of him, but they had no idea just how amazing he was.
Speaker D:And it really wrecked me.
Speaker D:And so that, that was really where it stems from is the fact that it was in front of me my whole life.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:So what.
Speaker A:This is a little off script, but what, what are, what are some of the joys and challenges of growing up in a family where one parent is of one religion and one of the other and because I'm sure there's people that are listening into this that are navigating it, maybe not.
Speaker A:Not the exact situation, but a similar one.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:So by the time I was five, my dad was more in and out.
Speaker D:He wasn't necessarily in my life anymore.
Speaker D:He had moved for certain reasons.
Speaker D:But it was interesting because on one hand, I have my friends at school who just think it's so cool that my dad's from Egypt.
Speaker D:Like, that's so cool.
Speaker D:And everyone would sing to me, walk like an Egyptian and think they're funny, you know, like that, that had that side of my life.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker D:And then I had my classmates that I also went to church with who didn't seem to care that my dad was a Muslim.
Speaker D:And that really bothered me a lot.
Speaker D:Like, I saw the church, and it wasn't everyone in the church, but I saw a lot of people in the church didn't care that.
Speaker D:That it wasn't just a family member didn't know Jesus, but generations of my family didn't know Jesus.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And it was really, really difficult to navigate because I.
Speaker D:It wasn't just a clash of two worlds of Christian and Muslim, but it was a clash of two worlds of churched and unchurched that I was faced with every day and trying to figure out, like, how do I live this life where I feel like I'm being torn in all these different directions?
Speaker D:And then I'm 10 years old, you know, and I'm trying to figure this out.
Speaker D:It was, it was a challenge.
Speaker D:I think it caused me to grow up very quickly.
Speaker D:I joke now with my kids being teenagers.
Speaker D:I don't understand them because I don't understand teenagers because I wasn't a normal one, because I had to.
Speaker D:I. I had to become an adult very quickly because if I didn't, I mean, mentally a kid can't be pulled that many directions and, and be okay.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker A:Well, thank you.
Speaker A:Thank you for sharing.
Speaker A:For sure.
Speaker A:In your, in your book, you share that you had this, the heart of going to the nations and, and a dream of going to the nations, and you share about that dying.
Speaker A:Can you share about that season and what.
Speaker A:How God brought you through that season of, of this dream dying?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:Saying this to who I know is listening, it's like, I, I love missionaries and I love their willingness to be obedient.
Speaker D:And I, I honor them every opportunity I get a chance to.
Speaker D:And partly because I really wanted to be one myself as a kid.
Speaker D:As a kid.
Speaker D:And I grew up in a very od.
Speaker D:What I just said, a missions focused church.
Speaker D:We gave a lot of money to missions, so whether our hearts were in it or not, but we gave a lot of money.
Speaker D:And I.
Speaker D:It's funny, but I thought to be called into ministry, it was to be a missionary.
Speaker D:I didn't think about the fact that my pastors were called into ministry, but, you know, when you're a kid.
Speaker D:But having understood the nations, probably at a greater capacity than some of my classmates in that season of life, I. I really wanted to go and work with Islamic people.
Speaker D:And I didn't care if it was Egypt, but I really wanted to work somewhere with Middle Eastern Islamic people because I had a heart for it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:And so all growing up, I'm trying to figure out, like, how can I.
Speaker D:What decisions do I need to make to get there?
Speaker D:And the Lord just continued to slam doors shut, like, every time I would try to move forward into something.
Speaker D:And, and so then I meet this guy while I'm in college and he wants to be in ministry, and I'm like, oh, it's.
Speaker D:It's a match made in heaven.
Speaker D:This is wonderful, you know, and.
Speaker D:And then, you know, we never had the missions conversation, which was probably stupid.
Speaker D:Of me.
Speaker D:But my husband felt very called to the local church.
Speaker D:And I didn't know it till after I said, I do, because I.
Speaker D:And not, you know, the smartest person on the planet.
Speaker D:And so I remember early in our marriage, I told my husband, I was like, I just can't wait till we finally can go on the mission field.
Speaker D:And he looked at me like I had just grown horns or something.
Speaker D:He was like, you have never, ever talked about that.
Speaker D:Like, this is new information.
Speaker D:So then I was like, okay, keep your mouth shut, Sarah, and just start praying, I guess.
Speaker D:And so it was this dream that I just kept to myself for a long time.
Speaker D:But when we transitioned from our first church to our second church as kids pastors, it really began to stir in me, like, when am I finally going to get to go?
Speaker D:God asks people.
Speaker D:Like, he's saying, I just want people who are willing and I'm willing.
Speaker D:And why is.
Speaker D:Why did he send us here?
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And so it just continued to stir this, like, dissatisfaction in me, where I was at.
Speaker D:And then when we were getting ready to transition again, instead of, like, hoping, well, at first, we knew God was doing something.
Speaker D:We knew there was a change coming, but we didn't know what it was.
Speaker D:And I was like, this is it.
Speaker D:Finally I'm gonna be able to go to the world, you know, Like, I was, like, so excited.
Speaker D:And then God's like, no, actually, I just want you to drive down two hours down the road and be a lead pastor.
Speaker D:And I was like, what?
Speaker D:You've got to be kidding me.
Speaker D:So when we moved here, I was so focused on if anyone's moved with children, they know how awful it is.
Speaker D:So I was trying to get my kids settled, trying to help my husband get settled in this new role.
Speaker D:And about a year in, I finally, I talk about it in my book.
Speaker D:It was my, like, come to Jesus moment.
Speaker D:And I was.
Speaker D:I was to the point where I was just angry with God.
Speaker D:I was like, you know, yeah, maybe I didn't do all the steps I should have done, whatever.
Speaker D:But, like, I'm literally sitting here saying, I'm willing to go, and you have been very clear that you don't want to send me.
Speaker D:And I just don't understand.
Speaker D:And I so mad.
Speaker D:And I'm just sitting there like angry tears.
Speaker D:I'm literally sitting, kneeling on my floor, just, you know, and.
Speaker D:And then, of course, in his very sweet, gentle, quiet voice, he goes, sarah, did you ever think that your dream isn't happening?
Speaker D:Because I believe your dream isn't big Enough.
Speaker D:Have you ever thought about that?
Speaker D:And I was like, I go, what's bigger than leaving everything?
Speaker D:You know?
Speaker D:And he's just like, I could envision him looking at me going, really?
Speaker D:Really?
Speaker D:That's the argument you have.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And he said, I want you to look back in your life and, and your time in ministry.
Speaker D:How many of the students that you worked with are now serving in ministry and serving in a missions in some way?
Speaker D:And I'm looking back and I'm like, oh, well, this student.
Speaker D:And, oh, this student too.
Speaker D:And I'm like, going through the list.
Speaker D:I'm going, oh, wow.
Speaker D:And he's like, yeah, just think of how many more there would have been if you had been intentional about it.
Speaker D:And I was like, wow.
Speaker D:Oh, okay.
Speaker D:And he's like, sarah, yes, I do call some to send or to go, but I need to also call some that will send, and I need you to send.
Speaker D:And I need you to be intentional about it.
Speaker D:And I need you to actually, like, quit being mad at me because I'm not letting you live somewhere else and start preparing others to go live in those places.
Speaker D:And I was like, all right.
Speaker D:So after I humbled myself, I was like, all right, let's go.
Speaker D:Let's do this.
Speaker D:So now I could say I like what we're doing and where we're at.
Speaker A:Oh, man, I could go 95 directions on questions off of that.
Speaker A:Yeah, from transitioning with kids.
Speaker A:Because I think a lot of people listening into this that are transitioning to kids, there's people listening that are serving solo and they're watching families transition with kids, and they maybe want to help and they don't know how to help.
Speaker A:So there's, there's lots of question ways I could go, but I won't do that to you.
Speaker A:I won't.
Speaker A:But what wisdom would you have from somebody that maybe they feel stuck in the current season they're in and they're serving in a way you so eloquently shared how you were hearing God's voice and you felt him directing you.
Speaker A:Maybe they're, they're.
Speaker A:They feel stuck in a season and they're not necessarily hearing God's voice in it.
Speaker A:Any words of wisdom for them?
Speaker D:Yeah, I would say.
Speaker D:And, and we say it in ministry a lot, but sometimes we can say it and not always listen to our own words.
Speaker D:And it's the keep doing what God asked you to do until he tells you otherwise, like, keep going with the last thing he told you and just keep running with it until that changes Because I think that's really what helped sustain me.
Speaker D:I knew.
Speaker D: where the big oil boom was in: Speaker D:And we were living there in that.
Speaker D:In that season.
Speaker D:And I knew God called us there.
Speaker D:Did I want to be there?
Speaker D:I mean, I loved it there.
Speaker D:I cried when we left because I loved it.
Speaker D:But I, of course, wanted to be, like, across the pond, and.
Speaker D:But I knew God called us there.
Speaker D:So even when I was feeling, like, dissatisfied or stuck in what I was doing, I knew God called us to serve the families in Williston.
Speaker D:And I. I was reminded of it every time I saw the hurting faces of parents of trying to figure out, what are we doing here.
Speaker D:We're from Texas or we're from Idaho.
Speaker D:And we came here because we needed work desperately, our families falling apart.
Speaker D:And I knew that God called us there.
Speaker D:And so I just kept doing.
Speaker D:I knew God asked me to do.
Speaker D:And even if I went to bed still asking why, and he didn't always answer, I just continued to move forward in what he was asking me to do.
Speaker D:And honestly, every day, even though I was still kind of like, I still don't get it, but okay, whatever.
Speaker D:I. I felt good about walking in obedience in the season I was in.
Speaker D:And that.
Speaker D:That made me, like, gave me the energy to keep going even when I felt like I.
Speaker D:Even though I wasn't.
Speaker D:I wasn't wandering, I was kind of.
Speaker D:I was wandering in my spirit because I was trying to figure out why.
Speaker D:And God was saying, quit saying why and just do what I'm asking you to do.
Speaker D:And that's really what sustained me.
Speaker D:So I. I would say that is, keep running with the thing he told you until he tells you otherwise, and he might not tell you for a while, and that's okay.
Speaker D:That's his prerogative.
Speaker A:Walking in obedience.
Speaker A:You mentioned that.
Speaker A:Walking.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What does.
Speaker A:What does walking in obedience mean to you?
Speaker D:Walking in obedience to me.
Speaker D:And of course, this is because of my life experience.
Speaker D:Means.
Speaker D:Doesn't matter what it costs you.
Speaker D:You do it in an American life.
Speaker D:It might not cost as much, but I'm an American, and it's cost me a good amount of stuff.
Speaker D:Like, I don't have a relationship with my dad because I not only chose to follow Jesus, but I chose to give my life to it in ministry.
Speaker D:And because of it, I no longer have a relationship with my dad.
Speaker D:And so there.
Speaker D:There is cost to that.
Speaker D:And so to me is if God asks you to do something, you don't just dip your toe in, you go for it no matter what it costs.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And what I heard you also say is, is you, you've walked in obedience even when you didn't understand.
Speaker A:Would that, would that be correct?
Speaker D:Oh, yeah.
Speaker D:Yep.
Speaker D:I.
Speaker D:And it's something I'm sure we learn with maturity as well, but some.
Speaker D:And even if you think about it as a teenager, your parents tell you to do something and you're like, why?
Speaker D:Like, my 14 year old was so mad at me the other day because I didn't let him plug his phone into this one battery charger.
Speaker D:And I was like, that battery charger might be too strong of a battery for your phone.
Speaker D:He's like, well, I already did it once before.
Speaker D:And he just doesn't understand, like, I'm trying to protect it, your phone.
Speaker D:And I think as children of God, sometimes we're that like asking, asking, asking.
Speaker D:And God's like, I'm just trying to like he, he knows.
Speaker D:And, and so we have to sometimes be okay with not knowing the why.
Speaker D:And I think that comes with maturity too.
Speaker A:And I think it's the heart of obedience.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Is obedience.
Speaker A:If I understand all the things why, it's really probably not obedience.
Speaker A:It's probably my human logic that's, that's guided me rather than obedience.
Speaker A:And, and that's convicting to me because I think it's 100.
Speaker A:I'm a science guy and so I like to have things figured out, but I don't know if I have it all figured out, if it's exactly obedience.
Speaker C:I don't, I don't know.
Speaker A:That's probably a deeper theological discussion than I can probably wade into.
Speaker A:And for the, all the spiritually mature that listening in, they'll, they'll thank me for not doing that.
Speaker A:So, so spiritual formation, you know, your book is, talks about spiritual order.
Speaker A:So you, you share that.
Speaker A:That spiritual formation was taken off the body of believers and put on the building.
Speaker A:What, what did you mean by that?
Speaker A:And maybe could you unpack that thought?
Speaker D:Yeah, I think it's from a lot of.
Speaker D:It comes from at least the experiences that I've had growing up in the 80s and the 90s.
Speaker D:Everything about when it came to sharing Jesus with others, it was, come to the church, Come with me to youth group on Wednesday night.
Speaker D:Come with me to this play that we're doing at the church.
Speaker D:Come with me to this.
Speaker D:And over time, my generation now thinks that I'm sharing the gospel by inviting someone to church.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker D:And that's not even close to the truth at all.
Speaker D:And so we have this whole, like, probably two full generations that have associated inviting people to the church building as, as their duty as a Christian.
Speaker D:And really, you and I know, and I'm sure a lot of people listening, that in order for us to share the gospel, we got to talk about what Jesus did, not just on the cross, but what he's done in our lives individually.
Speaker D:And that can't be shared always from the pulpit.
Speaker D:And so the church building is not, is not the way that we reach people for Jesus.
Speaker D:Now, it's a great tool.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:And that's why we meet together.
Speaker D:It builds us up and can be used as a tool, but it is not the, the catch all.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:You know, I had never thought about it the way you just described it and delineated it until I read your book.
Speaker A:You know, I, you know, I, I grew up in that generation where, as you said, inviting people to the building was the, you know, that was, that was like, took all the courage in the world.
Speaker A:Like you're going to invite somebody, you know, to the.
Speaker A:But, but until you delineated and, and unpack that, it made me really reflect of the real reality of sharing the love of Christ with somebody and not just an invitation, not to the building, but to a life and living a life with him.
Speaker A:So, yeah, excellent, excellent, excellent thought.
Speaker A:And so how would you describe a spiritual warder?
Speaker D:So we've all seen the TV shows, right?
Speaker D:Like, I'm sure if someone hasn't, I don't.
Speaker D:They must not own a tv.
Speaker D:But, but, or we know someone who we like to fondly call a pack rat.
Speaker D:You know, like people who hold on to things, whether they're good things or bad things, they just hold on to everything.
Speaker D:And I see a spiritual hoarder as somebody who is holding on to the best thing that they've ever been given and they're not sharing it.
Speaker D:And there could be a variety of reasons why, but they are choosing to hoard the gospel for themselves instead of sharing it.
Speaker A:And so, you know, I being transparent, obviously, you know, we, we served in Burkina Faso, then in Madagascar and then in Kenya.
Speaker A:Sometimes in those transitions, you know, you become so focused, right, because you, as you said, you're transitioning kids, you're transitioning a lot of things.
Speaker A:And sometimes you, you become a hoarder, right, because you're kind of in a defensive mod.
Speaker A:Trying to.
Speaker A:Is like self preservation and you have that opportunity to, to share, but you begin to hoard, hoard things around.
Speaker A:Is that a common thing?
Speaker A:Is that just Aaron, Santa Mar.
Speaker A:Struggle?
Speaker D:Oh, no, I think that's.
Speaker D:I think that's all of us.
Speaker D:Transitions can make us do all kinds of things, and we don't even know that we're doing it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So how does spiritual hoarding, how does that impact a local church?
Speaker A:So you're serving in North Dakota.
Speaker A:I never been to North Dakota, so I don't know what North Dakota is like.
Speaker D:We're going to change that.
Speaker A:Ye.
Speaker A:But what, what does that.
Speaker A:What does the local church.
Speaker A:How does, how does being a spiritual hoarder, how does that impact the local church?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:So especially in our context in North Dakota, we are depending on what part of the state you're in.
Speaker D:It's either very Catholic or very Lutheran.
Speaker D:And so we have people who are not opposed to church.
Speaker D:We.
Speaker D:We have a lot of what we affectionately call Christ.
Speaker D:They show up on Christmas and Easter and they invite the entire family, and it's a big affair.
Speaker D:And, you know, and they're not even ne opposed to talking about Jesus in those contexts, but outside of that, they don't want to talk about it because they're good.
Speaker D:You know, like, they show up at church a few times a year, and.
Speaker D:And they're fine.
Speaker D:So the problem is, is because if we are okay with inviting people to church, and that's just our thing, and that's.
Speaker D:And we don't do anything else, and we don't talk with them about what Jesus has done in our own personal life life, they're not going to hear the gospel message in, in the way it is intended to be shared.
Speaker D:And so it's an issue when we can't even get them in to talk about those things.
Speaker D:But we are friends with all these people.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:Like, we are friends with people at work or our neighbors or our kids, teammates, families, and we're sitting around the dinner table with them, or we're going out to eat with them, or we're having coffee or taking a walk.
Speaker D:If we're not sharing with them, then.
Speaker D:Then there's next to no opportunity for them to hear the gospel message.
Speaker D:Because if they're used to just showing up on Easter and oh, yay, Jesus is risen.
Speaker D:And they have no idea what that even means for their life personally, then.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:That it's just a big ball of mess.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And we need to change that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So one of the things you.
Speaker A:You mentioned that I thought, I thought was fascinating was like, four indicators into health of a church.
Speaker A:Could you share some of those?
Speaker A:Or, and.
Speaker A:And these four indicators.
Speaker D:Yeah, they're they're simple and they're probably not exactly like new information.
Speaker A:No, no, I think it's good.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:The first one, a healthy church has people in it who are energized by their faith.
Speaker D:Faith.
Speaker D:So they take ownership of their faith.
Speaker D:They are people who don't just take the message on Sunday and, and then they're good for the week.
Speaker D:They take it and they chew on the message over the week.
Speaker D:They read the Bible on their own time.
Speaker D:They talk with Jesus on their own time.
Speaker D:And, and that affects the Sunday morning time, the experience on Sunday morning.
Speaker D:It affects the relationships within the church.
Speaker D:It affects their relationships with people outside church because they're taking ownership of their faith.
Speaker D:So that is a great sign of a healthy church.
Speaker D:Another one would be an outward mindset, which was something that our church fought, and I talk about it in my book, but our church fought the inward mindset of we protect the people within the four walls of the church instead of caring about the people outside of the four walls of the church.
Speaker D:And so if they have an outward mindset, great sign of a healthy church.
Speaker D:Another thing would be actively seeking what God wants.
Speaker D:And I remember when I first pick this one, my husband was like, I mean, shouldn't every church be doing that?
Speaker D:And I said, well, yes, but we have, we have passive approaches and we have active approaches.
Speaker D:And a lot of times that comes down to the leader, Are they a visionary or are they not?
Speaker D:And if they don't have a vision of where that church is going and actively seeking God and what he wants to do, and then, you know, the pastor then relays that to the people.
Speaker D:They're taking the passive approach.
Speaker D:If that's not the way it is.
Speaker D:And a passive church is there to just, quote, love the people.
Speaker D:And they don't have a plan.
Speaker D:And without a plan, we all know what happens.
Speaker D:And then the fourth thing would be operating as a community.
Speaker D:So it's not an exclusive club.
Speaker D:It's very inclusive.
Speaker D:And they not only look for ways for the community to be involved with them, but they look for ways for them to be involved with the community.
Speaker D:And I think those are great signs of a healthy church.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so you mentioned on the second point, you know, that something you've fought with, I think, was the word you used in the local church of the inward focus versus the outward focus.
Speaker A:Maybe there's somebody listening in and they're, they're, they're a church planter, or maybe they've, they've stepped into an international church where there's a culture already in place, or they're serving in another local church and they would love to see the culture of the church, church that they're serving in begin to shift and they desire and they're praying for that.
Speaker A:Any, any, any thoughts or wisdom for, for them.
Speaker D:The first thing I would say is just remember it's going to take time.
Speaker C:Okay?
Speaker D:Culture does not change overnight.
Speaker D:And when we are excited and passionate about what God is going to do and we can see it in our mind's eye of what God is going to do, we want to see it yesterday.
Speaker D:And sometimes it may take a few years.
Speaker D:Like for our church, it took a few years for us to get where we're at today.
Speaker D:And so I would remember that.
Speaker D:First of all, make sure your expectation is, is good that it's going to take some time.
Speaker D:And then it takes elbow grease.
Speaker D:But I think a lot of the elbow grease comes on the pastor.
Speaker D:And if it's a church that's larger and has multiple pastors on staff, it starts with you guys.
Speaker D:Because if you want to see your church have more of an outward mindset mindset, then you need to live out loud an outward mindset.
Speaker D:And you need to actively be discipling people from outside the church, people who are not saved yet, people who are newly in their walk with Jesus.
Speaker D:You need to be discipling them, and not for the sake of building up your team, but for the sake of building the kingdom.
Speaker D:And our people in our church will begin to see that we're not doing it to show off.
Speaker D:You know, like when we're in Starbucks and we're discipling someone, we're not like, hey, come meet this person I'm discipling.
Speaker D:You know, we don't do it like that, but they see what we're doing and they see our love for unsaved people, and it, it catches on.
Speaker D:And people get really excited about living a life that they see fruit in their pastor's life and they want to see that kind of fruit in their life, too.
Speaker D:And so they will see that.
Speaker D:So time.
Speaker D:And it starts from the top.
Speaker D:It has to start from the top.
Speaker D:And we cannot use the pulpit as our excuse.
Speaker D:We should be discipling people just like we're asking our people to do.
Speaker C:Good word.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:Well, some of the.
Speaker A:I got two more questions for you.
Speaker A:Maybe two or three.
Speaker A:Not stopping when we're wounded.
Speaker A:You, you, you, you share about that in the book.
Speaker A:What, what are.
Speaker A:So, what are some of the reasons that this is so vital in life?
Speaker A:And ministry, not stopping when we're wounded.
Speaker C:Did.
Speaker D:People are messy, right?
Speaker D:They're like, people are.
Speaker D:So I'm messy.
Speaker D:I am messy.
Speaker D:But people are so messy.
Speaker D:And we can think the greatest of someone and have the greatest experiences, and it just takes them one time to just cut right to the heart.
Speaker D:And whether they did it on purpose or not, it's probably more often on purpose, but sometimes it's an accident.
Speaker C:It.
Speaker D:And our job is people.
Speaker D:As pastors, as missionaries, as believers, our job is people.
Speaker D:And so when we're dealing with people who are struggling or think they have it all together, we're bound to get hurt.
Speaker D:And we have to be willing to understand there's a difference between being hurt and taking offense.
Speaker D:And that is extremely important because we can tie those two together and, you know, create this cute little marriage between hurt and offense.
Speaker D:And it's okay to be hurt.
Speaker D:There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker D:But then it's, what do we do with it?
Speaker D:And, you know, I.
Speaker A:Can you share a little bit more about that hurt and offense?
Speaker A:Can you.
Speaker A:How.
Speaker D:I will.
Speaker A:How do you see the difference between those two?
Speaker D:Yeah, I saw.
Speaker D:Here, I'll.
Speaker D:I'll give an example, because I. I'm.
Speaker D:I'm better at.
Speaker D:At storytelling than I am giving a theological answer.
Speaker A:No, that's great.
Speaker D:So when we were going through some changes at our church here, one of.
Speaker D:There was.
Speaker D:There's a whole history, and I could literally talk for hours about it.
Speaker D:But we had this one particular meeting where we were gonna give an opportunity for people to not only hear about some of the changes, but to hear the why behind the changes.
Speaker D:And we had someone who I would consider to be.
Speaker D:At that time, we had been at the church for almost three years at that point.
Speaker D:And I would consider this person to have been a friend of ours.
Speaker D:We had even brought this friend with us, him and his wife, to a conference with us.
Speaker D:And.
Speaker D:And I just was like, these guys are great.
Speaker D:Like, our kids are on the same age.
Speaker D:Like, this is fantastic.
Speaker D:These are great people.
Speaker D:And at this meeting, I think his intent was to clarify.
Speaker D:I don't think his intent was to hurt us, but he essentially took over the whole meeting and ran it to the ground.
Speaker D:And it ended with people talking very harshly about my husband to his face in front of everybody.
Speaker D:And it was.
Speaker D:It was awful.
Speaker D:And I remember I fled like a child because I could not handle myself.
Speaker D:I was like, I am made for kids ministry, not for this.
Speaker D:And I stepped out of the room, and I was just bawling because I need it when stuff like that happens.
Speaker D:I am okay with confrontation, but I am a one on one confrontation person.
Speaker D:Don't do it publicly.
Speaker D:And I was just bawling and bawling and bawling.
Speaker D:And I went home that night and I was ready to, to find someone's car and slash their tires.
Speaker D:Like I was mad.
Speaker D:And, and I remember before I went to bed, because I always try when I'm super upset, I need to make sure I talk to God about it before I go to sleep because otherwise I know myself and I will wake up even more angry the next day.
Speaker D:And so I am praying and I'm asking the Lord, like, I don't even know how to handle this situation.
Speaker D:I don't know what to do.
Speaker D:And, and I remember it was quiet, like God didn't say anything.
Speaker D:And I said, I'm just so upset.
Speaker D:And I remember him.
Speaker D:And I was like, well, do I need to answer this?
Speaker D:You know why?
Speaker D:You know, I was like.
Speaker D:But I was like, I'm mad because they were mean.
Speaker D:And, and God goes, okay, so they were mean.
Speaker D:He said, but who are, who are they mad at?
Speaker D:Are they mad at you or are they mad at me?
Speaker D:And I remember going, I actually don't know.
Speaker D:And he goes, he started to help me see that sometimes it's not me, it's change, or sometimes it's not me, it's something that maybe God has been speaking to them about and I wasn't even aware of it.
Speaker D:And I just happened to be in the crossfire and I remember thinking, okay, I can take this moment and I can either choose to be really mad and joke about slashing tires or.
Speaker D:And what that's going to turn into is bitterness, right?
Speaker D:That's what it's going to turn into.
Speaker D:And I'll be offended and all that.
Speaker D:Or I could just choose to say, you know what, that hurt.
Speaker D:That wasn't fun.
Speaker D:Okay, I'm going to move on now.
Speaker D:And I had a choice to make because I knew if I chose to continue to be angry, I was going to take offense and I was going to be like, well, I can't believe they would say that about my husband.
Speaker D:I can't believe they were my friend, you know, And I could run with that and end up being extremely bitter, or I could choose to let it go because it's not me that they're actually upset with, it's the situation or the change or whatever.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker D:And I just remember, like, hurt is fine, but if hurt lingers, then that's when it becomes offensive.
Speaker D:And then we can create a pattern of taking offense.
Speaker D:If we, if we take the bait one time, we'll take it again.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:So much wisdom there.
Speaker A:So much wisdom there.
Speaker A:So, last question I got for you.
Speaker A:How do you cultivate your heart as a leader?
Speaker D:Spending time with Jesus, not because we're preparing a sermon.
Speaker D:I think that's a big thing.
Speaker D:We just, we just got off of a sabbatical and having.
Speaker D:Having to.
Speaker D:I was like, I'm going to be fine because I spent time with Jesus and I'm not preparing a sermon every week.
Speaker D:You know, I'm husband does that.
Speaker D:And it's gonna be great because everyone was like, just be prepared.
Speaker D:Like, your quiet time, you're gonna learn needs to be different.
Speaker D:Because it seems like everyone who goes on sabbatical says that.
Speaker D:And I was like, I'll be fine.
Speaker D:And then we get on sabbatical, and I'm like, oh, yeah, it is different.
Speaker D:I was like, this is different.
Speaker D:And I. I remember thinking, I have all the time in the world now to spend time with Jesus.
Speaker D:And I have.
Speaker D:You know, I sit down and I read and I'm writing in my journal and I'm praying, and then I look at the clock and I'm like, oh, it's only been that amount of time.
Speaker D:I should probably do more.
Speaker D:And I remember thinking, have I.
Speaker D:Have I been spending time with him for the sake of ministry?
Speaker D:And I didn't.
Speaker D:You know, it's easier, I think, maybe a little bit more cut and dry if you're preparing a message every week.
Speaker D:Week.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:But when you're not preparing it, you might be doing your quiet time for ministry and not even realizing it.
Speaker D:And that's exactly the boat I was in.
Speaker D:And then I was mortified with myself because I was thinking, how could I be doing this?
Speaker D:And I didn't even know I was doing it.
Speaker D:And so I think the best way for us to be able to cultivate our own heart is to spend time with Jesus genuinely because we love him and not because we are giving our life to him in ministry.
Speaker D:I am so grateful for him.
Speaker D:I'm so grateful that in the midst of the.
Speaker D:The life that I grew up in, and I very easily could have wanted to honor my dad so much that I chose to believe a lie.
Speaker D:But Jesus chose to make himself known to me, and I'm so grateful for that.
Speaker D:Why wouldn't I want to spend time with my Savior because of that, you know, And.
Speaker D:And so I. I think that is the biggest.
Speaker D:And I know that That a.
Speaker D:Not necessarily an action point, but we need to spend time with Jesus because we love him.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:That's why we need to spend time with him.
Speaker D:And that's going to change our heart more than anything.
Speaker A:It's a good word.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:Sarah, it's been an honor to spend some time with you today.
Speaker A:Any.
Speaker A:Any questions that you would have.
Speaker A:Wish I would asked and then maybe share about where people can find your book.
Speaker A:And then I'm going to ask you to pray for course.
Speaker D:Wish that you would have asked.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:Oh, man.
Speaker D:You know, I. I don't.
Speaker D:I don't think so.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker A:Well, if you, if you were wondering from North Dakota, if you're wondering from North Dakota, I thought he was a good podcast host, and a good podcast host would have asked this question.
Speaker A:He didn't ask it.
Speaker A:So I was just giving you the opportunity.
Speaker D:No, I loved, I love the questions.
Speaker D:No, I, I think it's great.
Speaker D:And I think it's a good conversation for all of us to have.
Speaker D:Have, especially those that are in ministry.
Speaker D:These are things that we need to talk about.
Speaker D:Not because we're talking to the people in our churches or the people that we're serving, but we need to talk with each other about it and sharpen each other.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker D:And I think it's great.
Speaker A:So where can people find.
Speaker A:Where can people find your book?
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:So you could go to my website, Sarah dangerfield.com and I am a Sarah without an H, just for that clarification.
Speaker D:And every Sarah will tell you that I am or am not the one with you.
Speaker D:So Sarah dangerfield.com or you can find me on social media as well, but my book is on Amazon.
Speaker D:It's on Barnes and Noble Books A million.
Speaker D:So any place that you would buy a book online, you should be able to find it.
Speaker D:If you're going to be at general counsel, it will also be there.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker A:We'll look forward to connecting there.
Speaker A:Will you pray for us today?
Speaker D:I would absolutely love to.
Speaker D:God, I thank you so much for an opportunity to just talk about ministry, to talk about life, to talk about.
Speaker D:About how important it is for us to be people who actively are looking for opportunities to share you with those around us.
Speaker D:And I just pray that you would be with each of us.
Speaker D:I pray that in the weeks, the days, the months ahead that we would keep our eyes open for the opportunity to share about you with somebody, whether it's someone that we've spent a lot of time with or someone we literally just stood in line with.
Speaker D:To get coffee.
Speaker D:Coffee.
Speaker D:I just pray that you would give us those opportunities and we would see them and take hold of them.
Speaker D:Help us as your Holy Spirit continues to.
Speaker D:To prompt us that we would walk in obedience and that we would move forward with whatever it is that you're asking us to do.
Speaker D:Whether that's to verbally tell someone about Jesus or to actively show them your love through us.
Speaker D:So that we would be not just people who teach about the Word Word, but we are people who live the Word.
Speaker D:We love you so much.
Speaker D:In your mighty name, amen.
Speaker A:Amen.
Speaker C:Sam.
