Understanding the Secular Worldview: A Conversation with Shawn Galyen
This podcast episode centers around an enlightening conversation with Pastor Shawn Galyen, who brings forth his extensive experience in engaging with individuals possessing a secular worldview. Shawn emphasizes the necessity of understanding secularism as a distinct perspective, one that does not inherently stem from a rejection of faith but rather arises from a cultural context where the notion of God is not central to one's existence. Throughout our dialogue, he articulates the implications of this worldview on how secular individuals perceive God, the church, and the gospel, highlighting the often vague and ambiguous nature of their understanding. We explore the importance of approaching these discussions with compassion, recognizing the uniqueness of each secular individual, and the need for Christians to effectively communicate their faith without alienation. Ultimately, this episode serves as a guide for engaging meaningfully with those who may not share our beliefs, fostering relationships grounded in understanding and respect.
Takeaways:
- This episode explores the nuances of secular worldviews and their implications for Christians.
- Understanding secularism is crucial for effectively engaging with those who do not share our faith.
- Pastor Shawn Galyen emphasizes the importance of modeling love and compassion in secular contexts.
- As parents, we have a responsibility to navigate relationships with secular individuals and teach our children to do the same.
- Secular people often lack a clear understanding of God, making our approach to evangelism vital.
- The conversation highlights the necessity of building genuine relationships with secular individuals to foster understanding.
Transcript
Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Speaker A:This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.
Speaker A:My name is Aaron Sandemier and I get to be your host.
Speaker A:Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast Pastor Missionary Sean Galleon and get to have a insightful conversation on secular worldview and secular people.
Speaker A:He has a heart and passion.
Speaker A:I think he shares that.
Speaker A:He served over 16 years in Spain and specifically working with those who have a secular worldview.
Speaker A:And the importance of understanding that just some great honestly guidance and direction for all of us, the desire to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with our neighbors.
Speaker A:And Sean's quick to point out, you know, they're secular people in the United States, they're secular people pretty much wherever we live.
Speaker A:And he explains what that is, what it means, how that impacts a view of God, the church, the Bible, how they necessarily might see Christians.
Speaker A:And so it's an insightful, fascinating conversation that will help each of us be able to navigate the secular world and how we can engage in it.
Speaker A:You know, it's very obvious in the interview that I don't know a whole lot about this subject and Sean's an expert on it, so I got to learn a lot from him.
Speaker A:One of the things that stuck out to me was this idea that as parents, we have the opportunity to model.
Speaker A:And so when we have our people around us that maybe not necessarily believers in Christ, how we navigate those relationships.
Speaker A:And so it models to our kids how they can also navigate them.
Speaker A:So just really appreciated Sean being on.
Speaker A:He gives him some great wisdom and insight.
Speaker A:And like I said, he's a subject matter expert on this.
Speaker A:And just great to have Sean on the podcast.
Speaker A:Do want to ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast under the podcast I've subscribed to.
Speaker A:They're the ones I listen to.
Speaker A:They show up on my feed and download those and I'm off and running for the week.
Speaker A:And do ask you to continue to send in your questions for Back Channel with Foe.
Speaker A:That's where we get to sit down with Dick and get to learn from him his wisdom, his insight and experience.
Speaker A:Always.
Speaker A:It's always fun time to spend with with Dick and get to learn from him.
Speaker A:And please continue sending your questions.
Speaker A:My emails in the show notes.
Speaker A:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker A:So here we go.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to have a new friend of the podcast with us, Sean Gallian.
Speaker A:Sean, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thanks Glad to be here.
Speaker A:Sean, you and I have known each other for quite a few years, but for those who do not know you yet, will you go ahead and share a little bit about yourself before I start asking you a bunch of questions?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, Sean, am I married to Deborah, three adult children, Luke, Ruth and Claire.
Speaker B:Our background stateside ministry was a university ministry with Chi Alpha, and we did that for, I don't know, over a decade and lived in Washington D.C.
Speaker B:during that time was great.
Speaker B:And then we.
Speaker B:We have been in Spain as church planters and university ministry people for about 16 years.
Speaker B:And then here we live in Granada, Spain, which is in the south, and been here and the whole time we've been in Spain and we serve in the AGWM Europe region, Europe leadership team and a few capacities in training, but also our emphasis on reaching secular peoples.
Speaker A:Yeah, Sean, that's.
Speaker A:I'm excited to learn from you today on.
Speaker A:On that subject or the realities of secular people.
Speaker A:So the first question I got for you, what is secularism and who are secular people?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I think often when we train and teach on this, the first thing we have to say is what it isn't.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:You know, there's lots of ways that word secular secularism is used.
Speaker B:You know, when I was a kid, it was used to distinguish between Christian music and secular music.
Speaker B:You know, do your parents let you listen to secular music?
Speaker A:True, true.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker B:I was never quite sure if that just meant rock and roll or Mozart.
Speaker B:That allowable, you know, was instrumental music that wasn't Christian cover.
Speaker B:Is that legit?
Speaker B:You know, so we all have that.
Speaker B:A lot of us have that in our background, kind of that use of secular.
Speaker B:It kind of means like this secular versus something explicitly Christian.
Speaker B:And we're definitely not using it in the political sense of secular government versus we have a king or.
Speaker B:Or a religious leader that rules our country.
Speaker B:You can get kind of that.
Speaker B:That version.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:But we're also not using it in kind of, I would say, contemporary, stereotypical ways.
Speaker B:It's kind of like secular people and liberals.
Speaker B:It's like how the Pharisees talked about tax collectors and sinners.
Speaker B:We're not using it in that sense, and we're really not even focusing on it from a philosophical sense.
Speaker B:Secular humanism, I mean, that plays a part.
Speaker B:And we can have that conversation when we talk about secularism and secular peoples.
Speaker B:We're talking about people who grew up in a certain environment, you know, that they're born into it, just like a Muslim is born into a Muslim world and a Hindu is born into a Hindu world.
Speaker B:It's a way of living, perceiving, thinking, and that's.
Speaker B:It functions in the same way as is Islam and Hinduism.
Speaker B:And that's just.
Speaker B:People are born into it.
Speaker B:European secular people are not backslidden Christians, you know, like, they just, they know better.
Speaker B:For them, it's their whole lives.
Speaker B:And you know, so we look at it through that lens.
Speaker B:So that's kind of.
Speaker B:I didn't tell you what, secularism, but just to say that we approach it from, you know, really a missions perspective, a cultural, anthropological, faith system.
Speaker B:And so how we would define that is we have a very simple definition.
Speaker B:It's a society or a culture where the gods or God are no longer at the center.
Speaker B:That comes from a sociologist, actually, a secular sociologist, to use that word.
Speaker B:And I think if you think about it, for most history, most societies, even today, there's always someone or some power or some force that you have to reckon with that's bigger than you, right?
Speaker B:So there's a God to obey.
Speaker B:There's a, a cycle that humans have to navigate.
Speaker B:There's an ancestor you have to honor, there's a God you have to appease.
Speaker B:You know, and in secularism, all of that stuff isn't at the center.
Speaker B:There's no big thing you have to appeal to God is an option, but he's not an obligation.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker B:And so that's when we say secularism doesn't have that traditional, whatever that big thing is at the center, but the person, the human, the individual is at the center.
Speaker B:And that doesn't mean people are secular.
Speaker B:People are more selfish.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:But it does mean that their only point of reference is, you know, themselves.
Speaker B:They don't have to.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's self authority.
Speaker B:They can be generous, they can be kind, they can even be sacrificial, but the only place they can stand on is I know, I'm here.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And so we often call it project self.
Speaker B:They have.
Speaker B:To a secular person, secularism says you have to create yourself.
Speaker B:You have to, to use your own agency to make all the decisions that were normally given to you by the God, the gods, the sociological structure, karma.
Speaker B:But you've got to come up with that on your own.
Speaker B:It's really quite honestly a burden and isolating.
Speaker B:And so that when we talk about secularism, we're talking about people who grew up, and those are kind of the givens.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Well, it is a, it's a worldview and a mindset and it's fascinating for me, I appreciated that, you know, the secular music reference because that, that really, I remember, you know, parents had an interesting rule.
Speaker A:We could listen to the radio, we could not buy secular music, but we could listen to the radio and record.
Speaker A:You know, this is the day of like tapes.
Speaker A:So we could record secular music on tapes, but we just couldn't buy it.
Speaker A:So anyway, just.
Speaker A:It's interesting though.
Speaker B:That's not what we played.
Speaker A:Oh man.
Speaker A:An interesting thing.
Speaker A:So, all right, so what are, what are secularism's roots?
Speaker A:Because I think that's a very important question.
Speaker A:And are there certain parts of the world you mentioned, you know, the, the Hindu parts of the world and Islamic parts of the world.
Speaker A:There are certain parts of the world where you, you would think that maybe secularism is more, more common.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, the roots are varied.
Speaker B:You know, we can talk about the philosophical roots, but that honestly goes way back to the Greeks.
Speaker B: much for this podcast to do a: Speaker B:But there are things that go all the way back to the New Testament times.
Speaker B:Ways of viewing the world, I mean, really talking about Western, however you want to call it culture.
Speaker B:And, and so, yes, that's the dominant place it resides, is in the Western world, and yet we export it, you know, I mean, and so it finds why its home may be Europe and any Western nation, it, it, you know, it's in Africa, it's in Latin America, it's in the Middle east because they're, you know, secularism is very aggressive in a sense, in, it sells itself well.
Speaker B:So there's like a long history.
Speaker B:You know, you talk about the Renaissance and even the Reformation, enlightened Enlightenment, Romanticism, postmodernism in the 20th century.
Speaker B:Okay, all of those things.
Speaker B: n't like this didn't start in: Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:It's a long way of shaping a Western way of thinking.
Speaker B:And Christianity has played a part in shaping Western, but it's not the only thing that has shaped the Western world.
Speaker B:And so, you know, from a historical standpoint too, the move into democracy create, helps create secularism because people have options.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker B:That's part of self definition, needs options if I'm going to define myself.
Speaker B:And so even moving from kings to democracy, I think in particular the world wars really kind of sealed the deal kind of Inaugurated, you know, what was secularism in terms of.
Speaker B:That was the last major thing.
Speaker B:And, and for the Western world in particular, it was a big deal, particularly in Europe, because you had Christian nationalist groups who, who supported radical Nazism fascism in various countries officially supporting.
Speaker B:And so that's a major historical factor that shapes secularism in terms of.
Speaker B:Okay, well, if all these religious stuff cause all the problems, then that, and then I think they're just sociological factors from the printing press to Twitter or as we now call X, you know, all of those things shape, you know, because the more information you have and the faster you can get at it.
Speaker B:And now it's at our fingertips on our mobile phones.
Speaker B:You know, I have options.
Speaker B:I can see a big world out there, and so I can imagine a life that's different than the one I have, and that is very much the options for choice, for consumption, for self identity, creation.
Speaker B:All of those things kind of create the soup that we like to call secularism.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:It was interesting you mentioned about the, the wars.
Speaker A:I never, I never would have connected that until you mentioned it.
Speaker A:You know, I was at a meeting one time and anyway, I won't tell that story.
Speaker A:It's different.
Speaker A:It's a long story.
Speaker A:But, you know, someone brought that to me, somebody who had Jewish roots and, you know, World War II and, and how they, they.
Speaker A:Their views of, of Christians in our role in that.
Speaker A:So it was something I had to, I've spent some time, spent some time processing.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, they really.
Speaker B:There was the philosophical postmodernism conversation that was already being had all the way back to the Enlightenment to doubt.
Speaker B:And those things just proved that anything, people who are really sure about something could be really, really wrong.
Speaker B:And particularly religious dogmatism.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Because it led to Nazism, it led to Italian fascism, and here, where we live in Spain, it led to a dictator being in charge.
Speaker B:And that was married to religion and to structures.
Speaker B:And so secularism has, as a default, not trusting, institution, isms, dogmatics, people who are very sure.
Speaker B:Of course, that has huge ramifications.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Insightful.
Speaker A:So how, so how does this worldview, how does it impact someone?
Speaker A:How they see the gospel, how they see, see God, the Bible, the church, Holy Spirit, all, you know, the things that, the things that I, you know, hold dear and true.
Speaker A:How would they, how would they see those things?
Speaker B:Yeah, I, I think there's varied expressions of secularism.
Speaker B:Maybe I can jump into that in a second.
Speaker B:But I think the first question about who is God?
Speaker B:I just like people to know that secular people, they don't walk into, you know, they're not living around walking with a personal God who, you know, I just don't want to follow.
Speaker B:Like that's not their default setting.
Speaker B:And for the most part, issues about God are ill defined and fuzzy in part because secularism trains us to think that how could anyone possibly know anything for sure?
Speaker B:How could you know especially things that are so big and important.
Speaker B:And that comes out of that fear of being dogmatic about anything.
Speaker B:And so it has kind of a built in.
Speaker B:The default setting is agnosticism or even agnostic ish.
Speaker B:Because the default setting so God, it becomes kind of this fuzzy.
Speaker B:No man's land.
Speaker B:Maybe you put personal God in that box of some sort, a nice grandpa who helps you out, but most likely you just avoid questions about God because it's unknowable and impractical.
Speaker B:So I think for that, that has huge ramifications for gospel witness because you can't assume, hey, you need to repent of your sins and turn to God.
Speaker B:They're like, who are we talking about again?
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:You know, because like they don't have that necessarily default towards a personal understanding.
Speaker B:All that being said, we kind of see there's four major types of secular people or expressions of secularism.
Speaker B:One is classic atheist, you know, kind of one we always think of.
Speaker B:And they know there's no God, right?
Speaker B:And that's, and that, that's kind of gets more play on in media.
Speaker B:But that's really a minority of people because it takes too much effort to know there is no God.
Speaker B:So that, that kind of is a smaller group, it's a vocal group, but it's not necessarily the core of secular people.
Speaker B:I think the other three categories or expressions kind of help define what I think about the Bible and God is, you know, you have your spiritual secularist, but that's someone who really finds useful some sort of spirituality.
Speaker B:And typically they dip into some sort of Buddhism or yoga ish.
Speaker B:But they find those tools very useful for developing themselves.
Speaker B:And their sense of God is more harmony universe, that kind of language.
Speaker B:You have your traditional secularist or conservative or religious secularist.
Speaker B:They might believe in a personal God because, you know, we're Catholic, we're Spanish, we're German, we're Lutheran, we're American, we're Protestant, whatever that is.
Speaker B:But that God doesn't have any bearing on your life.
Speaker B:There's no authority to that God, he's there and I may defend it, but it's really about a kind of a cultural framework than it is a God who you have to show allegiance in and submission to.
Speaker B:Okay, so it's a God that's out there, but he's not really present.
Speaker B:But then I think most people, their concept of God is.
Speaker B:We just called him pragmat.
Speaker B:Pragmatist, secularist.
Speaker B:Like, I don't know, like, you know, I might dip.
Speaker B:Use spiritual language when I'm talking to a spiritualist.
Speaker B:I'm talking to my conservative grandparent.
Speaker B:I might say God.
Speaker B:But the bottom line is it takes so much energy.
Speaker B:And that's really the heart vision of secular people is like, I don't know why are we talking about this?
Speaker B:And that applies to the Bible, it applies to the gospel.
Speaker B:It provides.
Speaker B:I'm just living my life.
Speaker B:I want to get to the weekend or I want to get to retirement here would be.
Speaker B:I just want a decent cheese and some wine.
Speaker B:And if I can avoid those questions, it's because why?
Speaker B:How can you even answer those?
Speaker B:And so that has huge implications about.
Speaker B:So how do they see God?
Speaker B:I don't know that most of them think too hard about it.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:And we talk about.
Speaker B:It's kind of an aggressive apathy, you know, and that means towards the church.
Speaker B:Of course you have a lot of negative historical realities.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:How could anybody be that sure?
Speaker B:That's so arrogant and self centered.
Speaker B:They see religious people as self centered and arrogant.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:And so, you know, because man, it's all about you.
Speaker B:You know, everything.
Speaker B:You're the smartest person ever lived.
Speaker B:How can you be sure?
Speaker B:And the Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:I don't know if anybody thinks about the Holy Spirit at all.
Speaker B:I mean even the religious, secularist or traditionalists.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, we had a woman, European woman, who, who, you know, I was, she's coming to our church services.
Speaker B:Not a believer, but you know, she's like, hell, I can see, I can see a glow around you.
Speaker B:You have all these vibes, you know, it's like, well, let me tell you what that is.
Speaker B:That's actually the Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:So I don't think people even know who the Holy Spirit is.
Speaker B:I mean there's, it's not a thing.
Speaker B:Because again, these are not backslidden Christians.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:These people for whom you have to introduce them to God, to Jesus in particular, and of course the Holy Spirit.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So Sean, then how do, how do Christians respond?
Speaker A:How do they engage secular people?
Speaker A:What are, what are some things.
Speaker A:I'm going to ask you a little bit something more of the challenges you face.
Speaker A:But, but for the app that the person like me who's just learning about this and forming a foundation, how can we respond in a way that we don't.
Speaker A:We do not come off as arrogant and self centered.
Speaker A:I think you said that some of the perceptions, how engaging conversation and develop relationship in a way that doesn't come across that way.
Speaker B:Yeah, some of it's just going to be some internal, probably emotional and attitudinal adjustments on our part.
Speaker B:I mean human beings and second people in particular, they can just smell when we're having us versus them approach.
Speaker B:Smiley1 but like I'm just here, you know, it's like they understand marketing, they understand people trying to sell something to them or they definitely understand people who don't like them.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:And if that comes across and you know, if your social media is posted with angry comments towards those people, you know you've, you've lost the battle before you've even begun.
Speaker B:So I just think partly just can we develop compassion for rather than seeing them as the enemies of our lives and of our culture.
Speaker B:And I think that's the first kind of attitudinal.
Speaker B:I think we can't confuse in that kind of culture war mentality also to confuse moralizing with gospel gospeling, you know and sometimes I think it can get confused.
Speaker B:We want to fix people's morality rather than introduce them to Jesus.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:And I think that can be a big issue.
Speaker B:I think also just don't even though they're western and might have vocabulary, God, church, Jesus, don't confuse their ability to say those words with understanding or having any concept of what those mean.
Speaker B:Like let me just give you like a specific example.
Speaker B:Like we work really hard here to not just we, we try to refer to Jesus rather than God.
Speaker B:Use the word God because God can be filled with all these weird fuzzy but Jesus is a particular person.
Speaker B:And so even like because that helps us hone in on what is God.
Speaker B:Well for us he's Jesus and here's what he's like, here's what he said, here's what he did versus God is so vague that you can't assume they're hearing what God what you're saying when you use those kind of words.
Speaker B:I think too though tell the whole story again.
Speaker B:Not only do they not know they should repent of their sins, they don't know that God is a person who loves them.
Speaker B:Built, created a beautiful world has our interest in mind because that's a God you can repent to and turn to.
Speaker B:And so I think Tell them the whole story that God's tensions, intentions for humanity, his love for humanity.
Speaker B:Yes, we have to turn from our rebellion, but they don't know that he's good, he's kind, he's loving, and he has this wonderful plan to renew the earth and make it well.
Speaker B:So tell the whole story.
Speaker B:Don't just tell the cross forgiveness thing alone.
Speaker B:Put the cross in the middle of the story where it belongs.
Speaker B:It's the turning point.
Speaker B:It's the heart of our faith, but it's not the complete thing.
Speaker B:And so I think that's important.
Speaker B:Do pray for them.
Speaker B:It's funny, you can get away with almost anything if you say, hey, you may not believe this, but I really believe in prayer.
Speaker B:Can I pray with you in Jesus name?
Speaker B:You can say almost anything you say.
Speaker B:I know you may not believe this, but I do.
Speaker B:Because they have to respect your story.
Speaker B:As long as you say that.
Speaker B:People like, oh, they see it as a kindness.
Speaker B:Hey, I don't agree with it.
Speaker B:Not always.
Speaker B:I don't agree with it, but I know that they're trying to give me their best.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So don't hesitate to be Christian, but allow them the space that you're not.
Speaker B:That takes away that dogmatic thing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think it still works whether or not, you know, they believe it.
Speaker B:And so I pray for their needs, pray for.
Speaker B:And that really breaks.
Speaker B:And I would just say, you know, talk about not just your conversion story or why you, you know, why you came to follow Jesus, but also that how he helps you overcome worry, how he helps, you know, like your testimony of day by day.
Speaker B:My kids.
Speaker B:I worry about my kids.
Speaker B:And I'm so glad I have prayer because I know it's not just my responsibility, God's and that really alleviate because people know that they feel stuck.
Speaker B:They feel like I'm the only person is in charge of things.
Speaker B:It's really terrifying and just modeling that we have another, deeper, greater something bigger than ourselves.
Speaker B:And so your testimony is that daily conversation.
Speaker B:And they might think you're weird, but again, if you say, hey, I know this may sound weird to you, you just, you deflate that.
Speaker B:And they're like, okay, but I like the fact that they have somebody they can turn to, you know, and so those are some of the kind of suggestions and kind of just relating and again, yeah, I think those are the main issues.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:It's that as you said earlier on, I think it would be very heavy the, you know, to feel like all the things that we're not Right.
Speaker A:I, I'm not all powerful.
Speaker A:I'm not, I don't have all the answers.
Speaker A:I don't, I'm not in multiple.
Speaker A:The one time, all the things that God is.
Speaker A:And to feel that weight, it could be, I think that would be super, super challenging, Sean.
Speaker A:Someone who, who's maybe listening in and they have a desire to, to, you know, engage people or to live in a place where secularism is prominent and to share the love of Christ.
Speaker A:You've, you've ministered in this area, you said 16 years.
Speaker A:What's some of the challenges you faced?
Speaker A:And then can you share some wisdom from somebody that maybe is listening in, that's feeling a call to this certain people group, but they don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're just, they're just fresh at it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, for us it's been a long journey.
Speaker B:You know, I'm a, I'm a church kid.
Speaker B:I admit it.
Speaker B:You know, I went to Christian schools.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I had to learn the most fundamental thing and that was how to live a life where secular people were really part of my life.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:You know, I, we, I'm very happy that I grew up happy in Jesus and my family is healthy and all those things.
Speaker B:But, you know, it really, my world was, didn't have a lot of space for really being with non believers.
Speaker B:And so if someone's feeling a call, most important advice, are you intentionally spending time with non believing people?
Speaker B:And I mean really.
Speaker B:And I don't just mean that, you know, at the bank you say Merry Christmas instead of having holidays, you know, or whatever it is I'm talking about, are they really in your life?
Speaker B:Because you can't theoretically be called to secular people because it gets messy soon because there's going to be issues that come up that make you uncomfortable.
Speaker B:And so I think learning to be with people, listen to them, ask questions.
Speaker B:Growing accustomed to the awkwardness of certain situations and things that come up, not feeling.
Speaker B:You have to win every conversation.
Speaker B:So if you feel called, start now, like there is someone in the United States next.
Speaker B:You don't have to come to Europe to find somebody, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a whole different issue of why we're in Europe.
Speaker B:You know, that's, there aren't enough Christians here, but at least the U.S.
Speaker B:you, you can be that light.
Speaker B:And so are they in your life?
Speaker B:Are you having lunch with them?
Speaker B:Are you, you know, do you have them over your house?
Speaker B:Are they included at your kids birthday parties?
Speaker B:I mean, I think that's, that's Just really taking seriously Jesus, friend of sinners.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and I think that's the major thing.
Speaker B:And out of that you.
Speaker B:Then the compassion comes, the us versus them is gone and it's us for them.
Speaker B:And then out of that flow, they begin to see you have something solid to stand on.
Speaker B:I think the other thing is, I would just say kind of hinted at it.
Speaker B:I really encourage, like all Christians for other reasons.
Speaker B:But are we experts in the Gospels, in Acts?
Speaker B:Because the whole Bible is inspired.
Speaker B:We know that.
Speaker B:But there's something about the specificity of what Jesus said, what he did, how he lived, and of course, his death, resurrection and ascension.
Speaker B:And I think we underestimate.
Speaker B:We have four gospels and they say unique things.
Speaker B:We tend to conflate it all and summarize.
Speaker B:But I would call every Christian to become an expert in the Gospels and Acts.
Speaker B:And I mean that both from an academic sense and a devotional sense, I really know the nuances of this.
Speaker B:Because the thing that changes secular people's lives.
Speaker B:You said that reminds me of something Jesus said.
Speaker B:That reminds me of something Jesus did.
Speaker B:And you have specific examples.
Speaker B:Here's what he said and did, because he's appealing and he's specific.
Speaker B:He's not generic God, fuzzy God, vague vibes.
Speaker B:He's a person.
Speaker B:And we want to show all of that person.
Speaker B:And so I would really encourage those two things, be around lost people, become experts in the Gospel and Acts.
Speaker A:Good word, Sean.
Speaker A:Somebody who's listening.
Speaker A:Maybe the specter of secularism can give, maybe parents that are raising their kids in a secular environment, maybe give it a little bit of fear, a little concern, not understand any advice or thoughts on this?
Speaker B:Yeah, you know, we've raised our kids in Europe and you know, we're our country.
Speaker B:99% of the people don't know Jesus.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We did.
Speaker B:And I think if I could say just a couple of things, one would be, is remember that, you know, in the, in the scriptures, the people of God who I think best honored God and served him, weren't people who had the perfect cultural environment.
Speaker B:I mean, think about the whole Testament, the people of God, they struggled with worshiping other gods.
Speaker B:The first generation that was truly monotheist was the one that grew up in Babylon, Daniel and his friends.
Speaker B:So first of all, don't need to fear that.
Speaker B:We don't need a cultural environment to experience for our children to experience fruitful, very Christian lives.
Speaker B:And so taking out that fear.
Speaker B:And of course, the New Testament church flourished when they're in the Greco Roman world where no one agreed with them about anything, morality.
Speaker B:And so I think the first thing is meditate on scripture to remind yourself that the people of God flourish in places when it doesn't seem like it supports our Christian worldview.
Speaker B:And I think that translates itself into your parenting in ways you're not living by fear and isolationism and all of that.
Speaker B:And I, I would say also, you know, there's, there's a time to protect your children from things.
Speaker B:We all know that.
Speaker B:But as they become older, you know, starting heading towards that third, fourth, fifth grade, sixth grade, and of course junior high and high school, I think they really need to see non believers in your home so that they see how you navigate the, that you can be loving towards those who disagree but also remain faithful.
Speaker B:So modeling that you're not fearful, also modeling how to be friendless sinners.
Speaker B:But I think we underestimate, if it's always out there is secularism.
Speaker B:And they never can see how to navigate that.
Speaker B:How are they going to learn to navigate it if they don't see you navigating it?
Speaker B:And I think some of our own isolation can hurt our children because it either causes them to always fear or be angry towards secular people, which can't bring anything healthy.
Speaker B:But if they, if you model it, it's like, okay, my parents actually have barbecues with people who don't agree with us morally and they've demonstrated the love of Jesus, but they don't cave.
Speaker B:Yeah, but they know how to.
Speaker B:They know how to.
Speaker B:I've seen my parents answer softly.
Speaker B:It turns away.
Speaker B:I've seen my parents say, you know, I disagree with you, but I love you.
Speaker B:And so I think not being caught up in the fear and really being authentically Christian alongside.
Speaker B:And your kids pick up that stuff, man.
Speaker B:And of course they pick up the fear on the other side.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and so I think that's important.
Speaker B:You don't love your enemies.
Speaker B:They've seen it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they're not really our enemies.
Speaker B:But that, you know, but we model that and I think those are the important things to really trust that the people of God flourish and then to model it for your children in appropriate ways.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I, I, that's a challenging word, Sean.
Speaker A:That idea of the isolationism versus modeling how your, how our kids navigate, that's a really, really challenging world.
Speaker A:Our, you know, we, our kids grew up in Madagascar, but they went to French, you know, French school.
Speaker A:And so it was run by the government of France.
Speaker A:And so some of these as You've, you've talked and shared.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's kind of bringing back some.
Speaker A:Maybe I should have had some more understanding of this when my kids were going to school and I could have maybe asked some better questions and had some better understanding of it.
Speaker A:But really challenging for us as parents to model.
Speaker A:Model what those relationships look like and not.
Speaker A:And not segment and isolate our kids.
Speaker A:Isolate our kids from it.
Speaker A:So, Sean, somebody's looking to grow an understanding.
Speaker A:Are there some resources you'd recommend?
Speaker B:Yeah, I'll be happy to also post some things and whatever.
Speaker B:There's a lot of.
Speaker B:A lot of books are actually focused on apologetics and they're not bad.
Speaker B:They're not bad, but they tend to be more philosophical.
Speaker B:But there are some really good resources.
Speaker B:I love John Mark Comer and his podcast I Love People, what Tim Keller wrote and said his sermons.
Speaker B:There's a lot of that.
Speaker B:That the people who understand who they're talking to and have a compassion towards secular people.
Speaker B:Those are the kind of people that we like to read the Tim Kellers and John Mark Comers and others who are pastoring in secular contexts.
Speaker B:We've got list of books.
Speaker B:There's a couple that are very simple.
Speaker B:We like one called Surprise the World by Michael Frost.
Speaker B:It's not so much about secularism, but it's a way to live missionally and just encourages us to be a friend of sinners and how to do that.
Speaker B:Kind of a really simple book on how to share your faith is called how to Share how to Talk About Jesus and Not Be that Guy by Sam Chan.
Speaker B:It's great.
Speaker B:He kind of integrates this idea of being with non believers.
Speaker B:But then how do I actually talk in a way that's helpful to secular people?
Speaker B:He's an Australian and so, you know, there's some.
Speaker B:Something like that.
Speaker B:There's some deeper in books on understanding secular world and we can put those links in the bibliographies and things, but those are some things that just kind of stand out to me.
Speaker B:Being rooted in people who really understand secular context and who are pastoral.
Speaker B:Those are the kind of people we like.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:Sean, I got one last question for you and then I'm going to ask you to ask you to pray for us.
Speaker A:So Live Dead has just launched an entity for secular people.
Speaker A:And for those who don't maybe don't are listening in that don't know what lived that is.
Speaker A:Maybe you could share a little snippet on that.
Speaker A:And then why in an entity for secular people, how does that fit within Live Dead.
Speaker A:And what's that for?
Speaker B:Yeah, so Live Dead is part of the Assemblies of God world missions and its emphasis is on what we call unreached people groups and planting churches among unreached people groups in teams.
Speaker B:And that's what Live Dead does.
Speaker B:What practically that means is there are cultures, people groups where less than 2% know Jesus personally.
Speaker B:And because of that, people can grow up in those cultures and never meet somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody who can tell them about Jesus.
Speaker B:That's what we call gospel access.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so there are secular people, like I said, around the world, like us has a lot of secular people, but, but they have a lot of Christians too.
Speaker B:There's somebody there that can tell them about Jesus.
Speaker B:So Live Dead Secular Peoples is a church planning effort among people who have a secular background, but whose cultures are not just secular or have secular people in them.
Speaker B:But less than 2% know Jesus personally.
Speaker B:So it's a, it's a church planting effort among people who have low gospel access from a secular background.
Speaker B:And so we do that in teams.
Speaker B:And so the live debt is recognized that just because you're not exotic or from a different culture, you know that you can still be, have lack of gospel access.
Speaker B:And that's really what it's about.
Speaker B:And so we're able to help lead that and really focus on those secular background peoples who have little or no access to the gospel.
Speaker A:Well, and that's exciting, exciting new, new developments.
Speaker A:And Sean, Sean, thanks for spending some time with me.
Speaker A:Is there a question I should have asked you that you thought, man, if Aaron, a good podcast host, he would ask me about this?
Speaker A:I mean, you're the subject matter on this.
Speaker A:So I have very little, you know, most subjects I can engage in and, and, but this one, this is, this is not something I'm, and I'm, I'm smart enough to know, to not add things because then you look dumb.
Speaker A:Because when you say things you don't know about, you look dumb.
Speaker A:So any.
Speaker A:Anything I should have asked or you helped me with the questions, which are greatly appreciated, but anything else that, that I missed or things are point before, before you pray for us?
Speaker B:No, I would just say again to reiterate, you know, I just.
Speaker B:Our prayer is that we as the church, we really grow in compassion and a prayer effort.
Speaker B:What I would hate to see is that the church has sideways energy in our mission and we're more concerned about propping up societal structures that support our life than we are about effective gospel proclamation among secular Peoples.
Speaker B:So that's our prayer is just.
Speaker B:Would.
Speaker B:Would there be a group of people that just say, look, I stand for certain moral things and I have a political view and I, I want my kids to grow up in this kind of world.
Speaker B:But bigger than all that is the mission of Jesus.
Speaker B:And I'm going to be a person who first intercedes that and sees secular people as sheep without a shepherd and just really pray that.
Speaker B:And then of course, begin, as we said, to extend your own life.
Speaker B:And so that's my prayer, is that we become the people who have just a compassion.
Speaker B:And I think it's a supernatural act.
Speaker B:Compassion is a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Speaker B:Help me to see them as you would see them.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:Sham.
Speaker A:You pray for us?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Lord Jesus, we are so grateful that at some point in our lives you found us, you forgave us, you took us from death into life.
Speaker B:But there are those, particularly of a secular background in the world, who don't yet know the wonderful news that you have rescued us out of darkness and into light.
Speaker B:And I pray that we, as the church would deepen our compassion and our capacity to share the good news with people from a secular background.
Speaker B:These sheep without a shepherd.
Speaker B:I pray, Lord, for strong leadership.
Speaker B:I pray for new workers.
Speaker B:I pray for people who just walk across the street and knock on a door and said, hey, you've been my neighbor for a while, but have we never had a barbecue?
Speaker B:And I pray God that out of that then we receive the Holy Spirit who equips us to do what we need to do by faith, we step out, we pray in Jesus name.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:Amen.
