Unlocking Leadership: The Art of Multiplying Leaders with Aaron Burke
This podcast episode features a compelling discussion with Pastor Aaron Burke, who emphasizes the critical leadership principle of recognizing and nurturing potential in others. He shares insights on the importance of being a multiplying leader, highlighting that true leadership involves not just delegation of tasks but also empowering others with authority and guidance. Throughout the conversation, Burke reflects on his own journey, including the challenges and disappointments faced while developing leaders in his church. He stresses the need for authenticity and integrity in leadership, encouraging listeners to cultivate their own growth while fostering the growth of those around them. With practical advice and personal anecdotes, this episode serves as an inspiring resource for anyone looking to enhance their leadership skills and make a meaningful impact.
Takeaways:
- As leaders, it is crucial to invest time in untangling relationships rather than cutting them off.
- Recognizing potential in others is a rare gift that every leader should cultivate.
- Multiplying leaders requires intentional delegation of authority, not just passing off tasks.
- A healthy leader must process disappointment through grieving, releasing, and expecting restoration.
- Effective mentoring involves showing genuine interest in the mentee's growth and development.
- To maintain a strong vision, leaders must consistently remind their teams of the mission and purpose.
Transcript
Hey there.
Aaron Sannemeier:Welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Aaron Sannemeier:This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.
Aaron Sannemeier:And my name is Aaron Sannemeier and I get to be your host.
Aaron Sannemeier:Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast for the first time, Pastor Aaron Burke.
Aaron Sannemeier:Aaron and I got to meet each other in Dubai.
Aaron Sannemeier:We were at some leadership meetings.
Aaron Sannemeier:He was doing the teaching, I was doing the listening and just really had a phenomenal time learning from him about multiplying leaders.
Aaron Sannemeier:Aaron, one of the we'll get it.
Aaron Sannemeier:Delve into a bunch of different questions I had for him and things I learned from him.
Aaron Sannemeier:But one of the things I forgot to ask him in the podcast was he mentioned when we were in Dubai to not cut what can be untangled.
Aaron Sannemeier:Man, what a leadership principle that is.
Aaron Sannemeier:Just to think about it made me think of my growing up years.
Aaron Sannemeier:My grandfather was a farmer and one of the worst things you could ever do, tongue in cheek, worst things you could ever do was the cut of piece of rope because once you cut it, it could never have the same length, it could never serve the same function as it was when it was together.
Aaron Sannemeier:And Aaron talks about that in relationship and the importance as leaders to do the hard work to untangle things and not just cut things off and move on.
Aaron Sannemeier:Just really learned a lot from Aaron.
Aaron Sannemeier:You will too.
Aaron Sannemeier:He brings energy, he brings excitement, he brings experience.
Aaron Sannemeier:He'll talk about mentoring, how he's found mentors, how he's mentoring others, what he looks for when he's mobilizing, when he's recru integrity and the important things that the non negotiables that he looks for when he's looking to engage with someone.
Aaron Sannemeier:And then he talks about, you know, the hard parts when you're disappointed when things don't go exactly the way you thought it would go, how he navigates those times and those seasons.
Aaron Sannemeier:Really appreciated Aaron being on the podcast and you'll learn from him.
Aaron Sannemeier:And it was fun.
Aaron Sannemeier:It was fun.
Aaron Sannemeier:Do want to ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.
Aaron Sannemeier:I know the podcast I subscribe to are the ones I listen into and come on my feed every Monday or Tuesday and know what I'm going to be listening to throughout the week.
Aaron Sannemeier:Do want to thank you for listening in for these years and over 300 episodes, over 100,000 downloads and it's thanks to you all for listening in.
Aaron Sannemeier:Do want to ask you also to send in your questions for back channel with foth.
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Aaron Sannemeier:And we get to learn from him.
Aaron Sannemeier:Dick, it's always a joy to have him on the podcast, to learn from his years of wisdom in ministry and serving in D.C.
Aaron Sannemeier:and Dick is a great storyteller.
Aaron Sannemeier:He has great answers to the questions that you all send in.
Aaron Sannemeier:And it's just a joy to have Dick on the podcast.
Aaron Sannemeier:Well, the.
Aaron Sannemeier:There's no time better than now to get started.
Aaron Sannemeier:So here we go.
Aaron Sannemeier:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Aaron Sannemeier:So excited to be here with a new guest of the podcast, Pastor Aaron Burke.
Aaron Sannemeier:Aaron, welcome to the podcast.
Aaron Burke:I'm honored to be with you.
Aaron Burke:Exciting.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah, we got to spend some time together in Dubai, and it was.
Aaron Sannemeier:It was phenomenal to be there with you.
Aaron Sannemeier:For those who were not in Dubai, did not to get to spend some time with you.
Aaron Sannemeier:Will you share a little bit about yourself before I start peppering you with a bunch of questions?
Aaron Burke:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:Well, I am a pastor in Tampa, Florida.
Aaron Burke: and I have been married since: Aaron Burke:We have five kids.
Aaron Burke:And the crazy thing about our family is that my oldest was born in July, 25 months later.
Aaron Burke:My second was August, 25 months later.
Aaron Burke:My third was September, 25 months later.
Aaron Burke:My fourth was October, and 25 months later, almost to the day.
Aaron Burke:My fifth was in November.
Aaron Burke:Your boy is a planner.
Aaron Burke:So that's what we.
Aaron Burke:And we got five kids, and our church has 10 campuses around the Tampa Bay area.
Aaron Burke:We love Jesus, love what God's doing around the world.
Aaron Burke:It's just really cool.
Aaron Burke:So, yeah.
Aaron Burke:Born.
Aaron Sannemeier:You were born and raised in Florida.
Aaron Burke:Born and raised in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
Aaron Burke:And then in middle school, my family moved to Pensacola.
Aaron Burke:So I was kind of raised up and went to Southeastern down in Lakeland.
Aaron Burke:That's where I met my wife and did some work overseas for a few years and then became a youth pastor.
Aaron Burke: And then: Aaron Burke:Didn't know a person in Tampa.
Aaron Burke:Moved seven hours away on faith and just started this church and right in the middle of Tampa.
Aaron Burke:I didn't think it would work.
Aaron Burke:Started in the dirtiest rundown dollar theater, which, by the way, they had a article came out, one of those kind of buzzfeed articles came out right before we started the church that said that this building was one of the most haunted places in Florida.
Aaron Burke:So.
Aaron Burke:And that's where we started our church.
Aaron Burke:And we were still there in that building.
Aaron Burke:We took it over a few years later.
Aaron Burke:So it's been.
Aaron Burke:It's been a wild ride ever since.
Aaron Sannemeier:It sounds like it.
Aaron Sannemeier:It sounds like it.
Aaron Sannemeier:Well, well, Aaron, I.
Aaron Burke:What.
Aaron Sannemeier:We're going to spend some time together today talking about multiplying leaders.
Aaron Sannemeier:So what do you mean by a multiplying leader?
Aaron Sannemeier:What does that mean to you?
Aaron Sannemeier:And what's that?
Aaron Sannemeier:What's your experience been with that?
Aaron Burke:You know, what I have found is that for every bit of potential that God has for our life, dream that God's given for our life, it's going to take more people than we have right now.
Aaron Burke:More team, more employees, more staffing.
Aaron Burke:I don't know what it is for you, and I just know that for every leader, we need more people on our team.
Aaron Burke:And so when I look at a multiplying leader, I'm going, who are those people that they just are able to multiply the dreams, the giftings, the plans that God has for them into the people around them?
Aaron Burke:You know, they're almost those leaders that they attract great people in their team.
Aaron Burke:Attract great people.
Aaron Burke:I looked at, I studied so many churches and businesses, and I'm going, what's the difference?
Aaron Burke:It seems to me the organizations that need the most leaders, that need the best leaders don't get them, and those who just have an abundance of them get more.
Aaron Burke:And I was going, what's the problem with that?
Aaron Burke:And I realized it has something to do with whoever is in charge that they have a multiplying mentality.
Aaron Burke:And, and, and now I'm just, I'm trying to do that in my life.
Aaron Burke:And, you know, we had to do it at our church.
Aaron Burke:It was my wife and I.
Aaron Burke:And then we built a small team.
Aaron Burke:We had a little leadership team, about, you know, eight by the time we started the church, about 30 adults on our whole launch team.
Aaron Burke:And then we had a multiple ever since then.
Aaron Burke:We had to go to two services a few months after because church grew better.
Aaron Burke:Go2 services, which means multiple leaders.
Aaron Burke:So we had to raise up more leaders.
Aaron Burke:Then about three years into the church, we went to two locations.
Aaron Burke:Well, that's multiple leaders.
Aaron Burke:And then now across all of our campuses, we got 10 campuses in Tampa.
Aaron Burke:You know, it's probably a good 30 plus services that happen a weekend.
Aaron Burke:That takes a lot of leadership.
Aaron Burke:And that's just our context.
Aaron Burke:But so our whole thing is, is I had to be a person that learned how to multiply who I am and what we're trying to get done.
Aaron Burke:And so learned a few things along the way, but I'm constantly learning.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah, well, I'm excited we're going to get to learn from you and that.
Aaron Sannemeier:I always like to get a download from somebody who's done the work.
Aaron Sannemeier:So that helps us.
Aaron Sannemeier:So.
Aaron Sannemeier:But what I hear you are saying is, is this not.
Aaron Sannemeier:Is not necessarily something you're born to be, a multiplying leader, but it is something that once you recognize it, you can grow in it.
Aaron Sannemeier:Would that be correct?
Aaron Burke:Yeah, absolutely.
Aaron Burke:I think it's a skill that anybody can have.
Aaron Burke:And, you know, people have used the excuse, well, I'm just not that outspoken, gifted guy.
Aaron Burke:I'm like, I don't think that's it.
Aaron Burke:I don't.
Aaron Burke:I don't think it's a personality trait.
Aaron Burke:I know some of the greatest leaders I've ever met around the world, and they're introverts and they're, you know, they're not a three on the enneagram or, you know, like, that doesn't.
Aaron Burke:That does not dictate.
Aaron Burke:It's more of the intentionality of the leader, not the personality of the leader.
Aaron Sannemeier:Let's go.
Aaron Burke:I want to help leaders understand that if you're intentional, then you can find opportunities to get laborers and leaders in your team and on your church and in your business that'll take you to the next level.
Aaron Sannemeier:That's good stuff.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good stuff.
Aaron Sannemeier:One of the things you shared in Dubai was the what's more scarcer than ability is the ability to recognize potential.
Aaron Sannemeier:Can you unpack that?
Aaron Sannemeier:And then I'm going to ask you a question about who.
Aaron Sannemeier:Who's recognized potential in you and how that impacted your life.
Aaron Sannemeier:So first, unpack that quote.
Aaron Sannemeier:What's more, what's scarcer than ability is to recognize ability and see potential in others.
Aaron Sannemeier:And then I'm going to ask you a question about who.
Aaron Sannemeier:Who's done that for you.
Aaron Sannemeier:Is that fair?
Aaron Burke:It's so.
Aaron Burke:It's so easy to see people's issues.
Aaron Burke:I think everybody's, you know, if I asked the listener right now to go outside and find some dirt, it'd be pretty easy.
Aaron Burke:I mean, I think within about a minute, you can come back into with some dirt, because dirt's everywhere.
Aaron Burke:Dirt's easy.
Aaron Burke:If I said, go outside and find some gold, well, you know, there's.
Aaron Burke:It's a lot harder to feel.
Aaron Burke:I don't even know how to do that skill.
Aaron Burke:It takes some digging.
Aaron Burke:And what I've realized is the same with people.
Aaron Burke:Anybody can find issues.
Aaron Burke:My question is, do you have the ability to spot the gold inside of them?
Aaron Burke:And it's very scarce.
Aaron Burke:I have found in leaders that they were there.
Aaron Burke:They have the ability to move past the issues and go, there's a gifting inside of There.
Aaron Burke:There's a calling inside of there, and you really recognizing what nobody else recognizes.
Aaron Burke:And we all need that in our life.
Aaron Burke:So I got saved at 16 years old, radically born again.
Aaron Burke:My life got changed.
Aaron Burke:I got.
Aaron Burke:I called into ministry and I remember meeting with my associate youth pastor.
Aaron Burke:Okay, this church that.
Aaron Burke:It's kind of bigger church.
Aaron Burke:And met with this guy and he took me out to eat and he said, aaron, I've always seen it in you.
Aaron Burke:Because I was like the worst kid in the youth group.
Aaron Burke:I was the loudest, I was the most rebellious.
Aaron Burke:And he goes, no, even your ability to, like, gather a crowd, even the ability to, like, speak, you weren't speaking godly stuff, but you had this gifting.
Aaron Burke:He's like.
Aaron Burke:He's like, if you could use that and cultivate it, there's something on the inside where God can use that gifting for a greater purpose.
Aaron Burke:What he did is he spotted it in me before I even saw it in myself.
Aaron Burke:That's great leadership.
Aaron Burke:Great leadership is going.
Aaron Burke:I can see the potential despite the problems.
Aaron Burke:And if.
Aaron Burke:If you will, always.
Aaron Burke:And it's a really good example of honor.
Aaron Burke:You know, honor is the ability to celebrate who somebody is without tripping over who they're not.
Aaron Burke:And I think that's good leadership is going.
Aaron Burke:I mean, I'm going to look at who you are instead of who you're not.
Aaron Burke:My mom always did that for me too.
Aaron Burke:She always shows.
Aaron Burke:Just felt like there was more inside of me despite, like she.
Aaron Burke:I was living in her house and she saw all the bad.
Aaron Burke:So I think that's something that I would encourage our listeners today is like, be the person who can look past the dirt, not saying the dirt's not important.
Aaron Burke:That's got to be worked out.
Aaron Burke:We can work that out.
Aaron Burke:But recognize the gold, and people will follow you if you know that there's gold inside of them.
Aaron Burke:And so I say things like this to my team.
Aaron Burke:It's like, I know there's a gifting in you.
Aaron Burke:I know there.
Aaron Burke:If.
Aaron Burke:If you stick around long enough, I'll help cultivate the call of God on the inside of you.
Aaron Burke:Even if it doesn't benefit our organization.
Aaron Burke:I think there's something big.
Aaron Burke:And if you'll just allow me, I think there's something.
Aaron Burke:There's more inside of you than you can imagine.
Aaron Burke:It's statements like that.
Aaron Sannemeier:Sure.
Aaron Sannemeier:And so.
Aaron Sannemeier:So, Aaron, are you.
Aaron Sannemeier:This ability to see gold in the spider and spike the dirt, are you.
Aaron Sannemeier:As you're developing other leaders, are you helping them be able to look beyond the dirt and to see the gold.
Aaron Sannemeier:Does that make sense?
Aaron Burke:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:Well, I hope so.
Aaron Burke:I hope they, you know, people, they always follow what you do, not what you say.
Aaron Burke:I think what I tell them is, hey, the same way that I saw your potential, I'm looking for you to see that potential in others.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good.
Aaron Burke:And I just want to hit on this idea because people will get very hung up on the idea of, like, are you, you know, are you allowing people to stay in their issues and stay in their character defects?
Aaron Burke:No, it's actually my ability to spot the gold that gives me the access to fix the dirt.
Aaron Burke:And I think people need to hear that idea.
Aaron Burke:Like, because I see gold inside of you, I'm not going to allow you to live less than the actual calling and potential your life.
Aaron Burke:I remember one leader I had as a youth.
Aaron Burke:Youth leader one time, and he's so great, so incredibly gifted.
Aaron Burke:And one time we went to a subway, not a, like a, you know, a restaurant subway.
Aaron Burke:And he, he ordered water from the machine.
Aaron Burke:Well, I mean, he ordered water from the, from the register.
Aaron Burke:Well, then he goes to the machine and he gets soda in the, in the cup.
Aaron Burke:And I looked at him and I was like, dude, you just ordered water.
Aaron Burke:Like, what are you doing?
Aaron Burke:And he's like, oh, you know, it's a dollar fifty.
Aaron Burke:Doesn't matter.
Aaron Burke:I'm like, no, your character is worth more than $1.50.
Aaron Burke:And I had to talk with him and I said, I said, you have so much potential inside of you, and if you'll allow me, I'll help mine that gold inside of me.
Aaron Burke:Inside of you.
Aaron Burke:But the only way I'm going to do that is if you'll let me also deal with this dirt that you still have in your life.
Aaron Sannemeier:It's good.
Aaron Burke:And it actually gave me access to work on the character flaws.
Aaron Burke:And that's what I'm asking our leaders to do.
Aaron Sannemeier:Wow.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good word.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good word.
Aaron Sannemeier:So when you, when you're walking this and you're looking for someone to believe in, what are you looking for?
Aaron Sannemeier:You.
Aaron Sannemeier:You gave us a few eyes, I think five eyes when we were together.
Aaron Sannemeier:Could you share some of those?
Aaron Sannemeier:And then I'm going to ask you what if any of those are non negotiable for you?
Aaron Sannemeier:So what are the things you're looking for?
Aaron Sannemeier:The eyes.
Aaron Sannemeier:And then we'll go from there.
Aaron Burke:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:One of them is just influence.
Aaron Burke:I'm looking for somebody that throws a barbecue at their house and 50 people show up.
Aaron Burke:You know, that ability to track others to them and that's a gift.
Aaron Burke:I mean, I'm not that person.
Aaron Burke:I wish I was that person.
Aaron Burke:And, and what I'm looking for when I'm, I'm scouting leaders, I'm always looking for going, who's those people that are just always around people.
Aaron Burke:They're always having the dinner party.
Aaron Burke:People are showing up.
Aaron Burke:I look for people that are innovative.
Aaron Burke:You know, they solve problems on their own and they figure out ways to do it.
Aaron Burke:You know, great leaders don't, don't call their leader and go, hey, I can't figure this out.
Aaron Burke:Because I'll tell you what I do.
Aaron Burke:When a leader does that to me, I go, oh, I can figure it out.
Aaron Burke:It's called Google or chat GPT.
Aaron Burke:I can figure it out.
Aaron Burke:So great leaders are innovative.
Aaron Burke:They're going to figure out solutions when everybody else has given up hope.
Aaron Burke:I think that's.
Aaron Burke:Let me give you just a couple more.
Aaron Burke:They're inspirational.
Aaron Burke:No one, no one wants to follow a negative Nancy, a Debbie Downer.
Aaron Burke:Nobody wants to follow the person that's like, man, the whole world's falling apart.
Aaron Burke:Isn't.
Aaron Burke:It's like, why would I get on that boat?
Aaron Burke:Like, I want to get on the boat of the person that's inspiring.
Aaron Burke:We can take the hill.
Aaron Burke:We can, we can make a difference.
Aaron Burke:We can see lives change.
Aaron Burke:We can build the greatest business.
Aaron Burke:The non negotiable for me is the one on integrity.
Aaron Sannemeier:Okay.
Aaron Burke:You know, a great leader has integrity.
Aaron Burke:They say they do what they say they do the difficult thing even though it costs them great leadership.
Aaron Burke:Yeah, because.
Aaron Burke:And I'm looking for those people, I'm looking for the people that don't cut corners.
Aaron Burke:Because how you handle something is how you will handle everything.
Aaron Burke:And if you cut corners on small things, then eventually you'll cut corners on big things.
Aaron Burke:So when you're spotting leaders and you're trying to multiply leaders, look for people that are very diligent in the very small things in life because they will be the ones that handle.
Aaron Burke:I heard it said this way before that if you handle big things like they're small things, then God will give you small something.
Aaron Burke:I'm thinking, I'm thinking it's opposite actually.
Aaron Burke:You handle small things like they're big things.
Aaron Burke:God will give you big things like they're small things.
Aaron Burke:That's the quote right there.
Aaron Burke:I know I was going to get it eventually.
Aaron Sannemeier:It's good stuff up.
Aaron Burke:But it's the idea of like you handle even the small.
Aaron Burke:Like it's a huge deal.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:And that integrity thing Matters.
Aaron Burke:I don't know if you, if your listeners have, I mean, seen the news lately.
Aaron Burke:It's all over the world.
Aaron Burke:Yeah, it's, it's, it's.
Aaron Burke:Leaders rise to the top because of their charisma, but they don't stay there because they lack character.
Aaron Burke:And I never want.
Aaron Burke:I never want charisma that can take me to the top, that doesn't.
Aaron Burke:That I don't have the character to hold me there.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:And we want to establish that.
Aaron Burke:And you're not going to get that.
Aaron Burke:Whenever you get the position, you get that before you get the position.
Aaron Sannemeier:Wow.
Aaron Sannemeier:And so modeling this life, this worth following, you share, this character, integrity are vital for you.
Aaron Sannemeier:They're the quintessence of who you want to be as a leader.
Aaron Sannemeier:And so with that, how do you daily walk?
Aaron Sannemeier:Because as people were not perfect.
Aaron Sannemeier:Right.
Aaron Sannemeier:And so how are you walk?
Aaron Sannemeier:How do you walk that line of being transparent and being, you know, authentic with those you serve so that you're living a life that's worth following?
Aaron Burke:Yeah, I think it's.
Aaron Burke:I think it's really important to making sure that you have people that ask you really tough questions all the time.
Aaron Burke:And I think the greatest compliment people give me, which is also kind of a little bit of a slight jab, is like the same kind of goofy, awkward, you know, sometimes inappropriate guy that you see on stage is the same guy behind the scenes.
Aaron Burke:Like, we're all like this.
Aaron Burke:You, you know, you know, I tell funny jokes and I laugh at myself and I laugh at others.
Aaron Burke:And, and, and my whole thing is, is I just, I want to be authentically who God's called me to be with the idea that people can step into my life and ask tough questions.
Aaron Burke:Um, and I think that's, that's the leadership that's worth following.
Aaron Burke:I think people look at it, they're not looking for a perfect leader.
Aaron Burke:They're looking for an authentic leader.
Aaron Sannemeier:That's good.
Aaron Burke:They're looking for an approachable leader.
Aaron Burke:One can be challenged.
Aaron Burke:The idea of the man of God where it cannot be challenged.
Aaron Burke:You touch not my anointed.
Aaron Burke:Those days are over, you know, and I think those days have long fallen.
Aaron Burke:And I think that the good, the good thing they have, because none of us are Jesus, none of us are perfect.
Aaron Burke:None of us have it all together.
Aaron Burke:We all need people in our lives.
Aaron Burke:So I've got my wife, I've got a few really, really close friends, and then I've got three really good pastors that pastor me.
Aaron Burke:And every, every pastor needs a Pastor, Every leader needs, you know, someone over them that's mentoring them.
Aaron Burke:So I think that's the integrity piece is.
Aaron Burke:I've heard it broken down this way.
Aaron Burke:It's a little, little nugget for you today.
Aaron Burke:Is, is every great leader has things that are private, but no secrets.
Aaron Burke:That's.
Aaron Burke:That's the big difference.
Aaron Burke:You can have things that are private.
Aaron Burke:So, for instance, you go over my house.
Aaron Burke:You know, you don't go in our bedroom.
Aaron Burke:That's private.
Aaron Burke:You know, that's, that's, that's my private space.
Aaron Burke:You know what somebody's salary is.
Aaron Burke:That's private.
Aaron Burke:You know, that's, you know how much they weigh.
Aaron Burke:That's private.
Aaron Burke:Okay, so that's nobody's business.
Aaron Burke:That's different than a secret.
Aaron Burke:Secrets kill leaders, and we are always as sick as our secrets are.
Aaron Burke:So the only way to get really free is to make sure that you're just not hiding anything.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:And so that, that is the integrity piece of this.
Aaron Burke:Because eventually it will be exposed.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:Either you expose it to people in confidence that can walk with you through it, whether that's a counselor, a pastor, a mentor, or God exposes it publicly, and you don't want that to happen.
Aaron Burke:Yeah.
Aaron Sannemeier:So the, the three.
Aaron Sannemeier:Three pastors that are pastoring you, did you go out and find them?
Aaron Sannemeier:Did they find you?
Aaron Sannemeier:How did that work?
Aaron Sannemeier:And one of the things I've seen, that's one question.
Aaron Sannemeier:Second question is this.
Aaron Sannemeier:Sometimes people will have people that ask them the hard questions.
Aaron Sannemeier:They struggle to tell them the truth.
Aaron Sannemeier:Does that make sense?
Aaron Sannemeier:So they'll create a, an illusion that they have people around them that are asking them questions, and they ask them the questions, but they still don't have the courage to say the truth.
Aaron Sannemeier:So how did.
Aaron Sannemeier:Did you find the three pastors.
Aaron Sannemeier:Three pastors find you?
Aaron Sannemeier:And how do you have the courage then to.
Aaron Sannemeier:When they ask questions to you that.
Aaron Sannemeier:The hard questions, you're able to walk in truth with it.
Aaron Burke:That's a great question.
Aaron Burke:You know, accountability is, is not real.
Aaron Burke:I mean, it's a facade to say, well, I'm accountable to people.
Aaron Burke:No, you're as accountable as you really want to be.
Aaron Burke:I have heard it, you know, when it comes to even governmental structures over organizations, non profits, churches, people go better than the other.
Aaron Burke:And really, you can get away with whatever you want in any system.
Aaron Burke:You can, because you can.
Aaron Burke:You.
Aaron Burke:You can, you know, deceive anybody.
Aaron Sannemeier:Right.
Aaron Burke:So I, I think there is an under.
Aaron Burke:There's an overarching idea that it's only as good as you're authentic, accountability is only as good as you are authentic.
Aaron Burke:That's the key.
Aaron Burke:As for mentors and pastors in our life, this question I get all the time.
Aaron Burke:I think it's so good because I have such good ones.
Aaron Burke:None of them approached me.
Aaron Burke:None of them came up to me and said, can I be that voice in your life?
Aaron Burke:It was always me recognizing that they have something I want.
Aaron Burke:I have two of them.
Aaron Burke:I.
Aaron Burke:One of them, I grew up in his youth group.
Aaron Burke:The other one, I was, you know, a hire on his staff, and he had tons of staff, dozens of staff.
Aaron Burke:But I pursued the mentorship relationship with him more than any other staff member.
Aaron Burke:And I've actually done a whole teaching on this of how to do this, because you don't ever want to drain that person.
Aaron Burke:You don't ever want to be like a.
Aaron Burke:Like, you want to come with good questions.
Aaron Burke:You.
Aaron Burke:You want to make sure you.
Aaron Burke:You've honored them, honor their time, recognize what's important to them.
Aaron Burke:So there's a whole thing in approaching mentorship.
Aaron Burke:And now that I'm getting older, you know, people want to me to mentor them a little bit.
Aaron Burke:I'm 40 now, and so it's.
Aaron Burke:I guess that's like the age where people are like, oh, can you mentor me?
Aaron Burke:It's like, I can't take it with a grain of salt.
Aaron Burke:Like, we'll see.
Aaron Burke:I'm like, I am as available as you want to be.
Aaron Burke:You want to put it on the calendar.
Aaron Burke:You want to reach out, I'll do it, but I'm not reaching out because it shows a lot.
Aaron Burke:So I would just challenge leaders.
Aaron Burke:Like, you know, you see that person that you want to.
Aaron Burke:You want to get to know, you want to do this, honor their time.
Aaron Burke:I had a pastor call me the other day, so great.
Aaron Burke:He's always looking for me to mentor him and connect with them, and I don't know if I have anything to offer him.
Aaron Burke:But he said, hey, can I have five minutes of your time?
Aaron Burke:I said, sure, man.
Aaron Burke:Call me.
Aaron Burke:I'm.
Aaron Burke:I'm driving.
Aaron Burke:So he drove.
Aaron Burke:We get to about a minute before it's over, and he goes, hey, we got a minute left.
Aaron Burke:You know, I'll wrap this up.
Aaron Burke:And I was like.
Aaron Burke:I was like, no, I'm driving.
Aaron Burke:I said, we can go for a few more minutes ago.
Aaron Burke:No, no, I'd rather cut it short so that you give me more time in the future.
Aaron Burke:And I just thought that was like, whoa, you know, I don't care.
Aaron Burke:I'm like, let's talk.
Aaron Burke:But I do think there's something about pursuing that person, honoring their time, coming with really well thought out questions.
Aaron Burke:That's how you really get good mentorship in your life.
Aaron Sannemeier:No, and it's vitally important.
Aaron Sannemeier:I think sometimes if we sit back and wait for it to happen, you know, it doesn't.
Aaron Sannemeier:And the other, sometimes, you know, you ask somebody if they, they were able to walk and they can't do it.
Aaron Sannemeier:It's a season of life.
Aaron Sannemeier:They can't.
Aaron Sannemeier:They, they can't do it.
Aaron Sannemeier:And you'd much rather people tell you that.
Aaron Sannemeier:One of the other things you talked about was the idea of, you know, you reaching out to them.
Aaron Sannemeier:Herbert Irwin McManus, he spoke one time and he said, you know, I've learned in mentoring people, sometimes my back would hurt and I would get tired because I was pulling them along.
Aaron Sannemeier:Like they asked me to be their mentor.
Aaron Sannemeier:But it was me who was.
Aaron Sannemeier:I was doing all the work and pursuing and pulling and pulling, pulling.
Aaron Sannemeier:And I was wore out.
Aaron Sannemeier:He said, now I'll walk along.
Aaron Sannemeier:I will walk alongside with somebody, but I'm not going to pull them and drag them because I just end up tired and have a sore back.
Aaron Sannemeier:And anyway, it always stuck out to me that idea, if you want to be mentored, there's got to be some work to go into it from your side, too.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good stuff.
Aaron Sannemeier:So delegation versus dumping, how have you learned as you're multiplying leaders and you talk about delegating authority, not just task, and so you clearly delineated that to us when you were sharing.
Aaron Sannemeier:So how do you delegate authority and not lean towards delegating and dumping on somebody?
Aaron Sannemeier:Does that make sense?
Aaron Burke:Yeah, well, you know, I think the whole idea of it is, is that if you really want to multiply leaders, then your job is to delegate to them not just stuff to do, but authority and people to lead.
Aaron Burke:That's really.
Aaron Burke:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:So, you know, I think in the early days of at least, you know, in the work, I, I'm in church work and it was like, oh, we want to raise up leaders.
Aaron Burke:We'll just have people stack chairs.
Aaron Burke:You know, they got a stack of chairs and I get it, I get it.
Aaron Burke:We want to have a servant attitude.
Aaron Burke:Jesus became nothing.
Aaron Burke:So, you know, he emptied himself and became a servant.
Aaron Burke:I think that is so vitally important.
Aaron Burke:I don't think it's a great way to raise leaders, though.
Aaron Burke:It's a great way to procreate servant attitude.
Aaron Burke:But a leadership is when you delegate authority.
Aaron Burke:So there's a Big difference between delegating and dumping.
Aaron Burke:Dumping is when you say something like, hey, I need you to run the staff huddle today.
Aaron Burke:And you just, you figure it out.
Aaron Burke:Well, that's dumping authority on them.
Aaron Burke:So you're saying, hey, here's the thing, figure it out.
Aaron Burke:And what they're doing is they're going, okay, I mean, what a great opportunity.
Aaron Burke:I get this opportunity, but how do I do it?
Aaron Burke:That's not great leadership.
Aaron Burke:Great leadership is, hey, I want to teach you how to lead the staff.
Aaron Burke:I'm going to delegate the authority to you and give you some opportunities that you would not get in the other way.
Aaron Burke:But the only way I'm giving you this opportunity is that you embrace the process.
Aaron Burke:Now, the process is, I do, we do, you do.
Aaron Burke:I do this.
Aaron Burke:And you're going to watch me.
Aaron Burke:So I'm going to do the staff huddle for the next couple weeks, and I want you there watching me.
Aaron Burke:I want you taking some notes, maybe record it so you can see how it looks.
Aaron Burke:And then next, and in a few weeks, when you feel comfortable, I'm going to have you do it, but I'm going to be there next to you and I'm going to walk you through the process.
Aaron Burke:I'm going to give you good feedback, and then in a few weeks, you're going to do it.
Aaron Burke:And I am just going to be a fly on the wall and standing in the back.
Aaron Burke:And what it's doing is, now it takes longer than you want it to take, but it develops the leader you want to have.
Aaron Burke:Because now they're thinking and they're doing it the way you want to do it.
Aaron Burke:So I always tell people, like, delegating is a lot of work.
Aaron Burke:And the reason most leaders don't delegate is because it's easier to do it themselves in true delegation.
Aaron Burke:But you.
Aaron Burke:I said it this way, and I don't have my notes here from that day, but I said something along the way of, like, whenever you delegate authority, you're never losing it, you're multiplying it.
Aaron Burke:And what that means is, like, if you will take time to slow down and train the leader that you're trying to multiply and you're trying to delegate authority to, then eventually you'll have multiplied your ability to make a difference because now you've properly trained them.
Aaron Burke:So I would just say that's a big difference.
Aaron Burke:Dumping and delegation comes down to one major thing.
Aaron Burke:It's, did you give feedback over the long haul of the training process?
Aaron Burke:That's, that's really the difference and good delegation is I'm taking you on a process filled with feedback.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah, that's, it's good stuff.
Aaron Sannemeier:And I, I think the, the reality for all of us, we've been dumped on.
Aaron Sannemeier:And so you don't, you don't want to do that to somebody else.
Aaron Sannemeier:At the same time, you're, you're delegating, you're delegating authority.
Aaron Sannemeier:The other thing I heard you say, Aaron, is this.
Aaron Sannemeier:Sometimes, at least for me, I'm not patient.
Aaron Sannemeier:But what I'm hearing you say in this process, if we're going to delegate authority, we need to be patient in the process.
Aaron Sannemeier:Because you said it's more like a slow cooker or a crock pot rather than, you know, cooking, you know, something in a, I don't know, something, a microwave.
Aaron Sannemeier:So, so it's a patient process to walk through and having a long view versus the short view of getting done.
Aaron Sannemeier:And I think that's when I, you know, when we're dumped on just somebody trying to get something off their plate and a quick answer, not something and somebody to invest in us.
Aaron Sannemeier:So good, good, good, good stuff.
Aaron Burke:It takes long to develop really good leaders.
Aaron Burke:I wish it happened immediately.
Aaron Burke:You know, even Jesus, I, you got to think about, took them three years to develop these 11 guys, you know, and I, I, I would think if you're God, you could do it pretty quick, but even God, it took a few years to do this.
Aaron Burke:And it shows us that people need to be reprogrammed and retrained.
Aaron Burke:And it's just going to take a long process, but it's worth it.
Aaron Burke:And I want your listeners to hear it.
Aaron Burke:It is worth it, it's worth it to keep believing in people, to keep trying with people, because I know everybody's got a horror story.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:About somebody that they walked them through the process, they thought they were teachable, they thought they were a ride or die.
Aaron Burke:They're with them for life and they screwed them over and they hurt them.
Aaron Burke:And that's, that is where you got to keep your heart from cynicism to really go, no, I'm going to keep believing in people and recognize that sometimes they're not going to get the lesson the first time and keep walking them through it.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Sannemeier:And Aaron, that leads into the.
Aaron Sannemeier:My next question for you.
Aaron Sannemeier:The idea of inevitably, if we invest in people, it's not going to go the way necessarily we want it to go.
Aaron Sannemeier:That's this kind of the process.
Aaron Sannemeier:And when you're disappointed, you mentioned some steps almost like the Grief, like Dabda, you know, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, something similar to that.
Aaron Sannemeier:But you had different words, more eloquent than I just spouted them off.
Aaron Sannemeier:But what is when you're thinking somebody's disappointed you, the relationship, somebody you've been investing in, in their leadership and in their life and as you said, helping them deal with their dirt.
Aaron Sannemeier:So.
Aaron Sannemeier:And honoring the gold, how do you walk through that?
Aaron Sannemeier:So you're willing to not just pull back and say, hey, I'm not doing this anymore.
Aaron Burke:Yeah, if you're going to do leadership and if you're going to multiply, you're going to have people really hurt you and it stinks and you're going to deal with disappointment.
Aaron Burke:I mean, Jesus dealt with it.
Aaron Burke:Paul, Paul dealt with it.
Aaron Burke:You know, he had, you know, you got stories where he's talking about demons, where he was, I mean, rebuking this guy that just heard him, he said statements like, all of Asia has forsaken me.
Aaron Burke:Like, how do you get to a place where an entire continent.
Aaron Sannemeier:No, that's a lot.
Aaron Burke:Like, that's a lot.
Aaron Burke:It's a lot.
Aaron Burke:So I just think that you're going to deal with it.
Aaron Burke:So here's my process to.
Aaron Burke:It is when somebody hurts me, I recognize the hurt and I actually grieve it.
Aaron Burke:I don't say things like, nah, it doesn't matter, who cares?
Aaron Burke:You know?
Aaron Burke:No, no, no, no.
Aaron Burke:I have to go through a grieving period.
Aaron Burke:And when somebody walks out of my life or hurts me or over promises and under delivers, I take a season and I grieve it.
Aaron Burke:I, I cry a little bit.
Aaron Burke:I'm not.
Aaron Burke:I mean, it hurts.
Aaron Burke:And by the way, whenever it stops hurting, like whenever you don't care anymore, then you've probably gotten too callous to be a great leader.
Aaron Sannemeier:Wow.
Aaron Burke:Great leaders feel what their people have done to him, you know, and, and, and, and that's what I've just realized.
Aaron Burke:I just have to have a season of grieving it, and then I eventually have to have a season to release it.
Aaron Burke:So I grieve it, I release it, I give it to God.
Aaron Burke:I release it.
Aaron Burke:You know, I've done a lot of just dumb kind of ritualistic stuff that for me, has helped me.
Aaron Burke:You know, I've wrote their name on a little card and toured up and threw it away.
Aaron Burke:You know, people can make jokes about, but the idea of it is, to me, I just gotta have a moment where I release it in my heart and I go, okay, that's done.
Aaron Burke:Like, I'm Moving on.
Aaron Burke:And then here's my third one is then I expect God to replace it.
Aaron Burke:Like, I actually believe that if God brought them in my life and then removed them from my life, he's going to bring the next person.
Aaron Burke:And what I don't want is I don't want to be so wounded from the last person that hurt me that I bleed on the next person that God gives me.
Aaron Sannemeier:Sure.
Aaron Burke:That's what a lot of leaders do.
Aaron Burke:When people come to you and you say things like, to them about, well, I'm glad you're here because Mike, man, Mike, Mike left me and hurt me.
Aaron Burke:And I poured my life into my.
Aaron Burke:When I'm a young leader and I'm sitting around you, I'm going, oh, this person's not healed from life.
Aaron Burke:Like, let's, let's, let's, let's be excited about who's in front of you instead of focused on who left you.
Aaron Sannemeier:Wow.
Aaron Burke:And that's leadership.
Aaron Burke:Leadership is just going, they walked out of my life, they hurt me.
Aaron Burke:I'm not going to carry that bitterness to the next person.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:Because if I do that, then that next person will not get the best of what I have to offer.
Aaron Burke:And that's really what multiplying leadership is all about.
Aaron Burke:Multiplying leadership is reproducing not what you know, but who you are.
Aaron Burke:And the only way to do that is to be a healthy, holistic person that's worth reproducing.
Aaron Burke:So get healed, get healthy, and then once you are, then watch how God will bring you people in your life so that you can raise them up to be the leaders that they're called to be.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Sannemeier:This answer is probably going to vary, but I'm going to ask it anyway because I'll get emails.
Aaron Sannemeier:I'm asking why I didn't ask you this question.
Aaron Sannemeier:So this process you talked about that you walked through, is that something that takes a day or two or is it.
Aaron Sannemeier:I imagine it depends on the relationship.
Aaron Sannemeier:But is this something you say, hey, I'm going to give myself yourself a month to walk through this?
Aaron Sannemeier:Or any signs that.
Aaron Sannemeier:I guess another way to ask this question would be, is there any signs that, hey, I've not really let this go on because this is going too long.
Aaron Sannemeier:Does that, does that make sense?
Aaron Burke:It's a great question.
Aaron Burke:So I would say the length of it determines the depth of the relationship.
Aaron Sannemeier:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:So there's some that, you know, as a, as a leader, I can do this all in two days.
Aaron Burke:You know, I read it, I release it I replace it.
Aaron Sannemeier:It.
Aaron Burke:But in reality, D wounds take a little bit of time.
Aaron Burke:I have come to find out in my life, if I get past the two to three months of still I can't even think of calling them.
Aaron Burke:I can't.
Aaron Burke:I can't go.
Aaron Burke:If I run into them in the grocery store, I'm going to be angry.
Aaron Burke:You know, that kind of thing.
Aaron Burke:I don't look at their social media because I'm going to get mad, that kind of stuff.
Aaron Burke:When you get into the three, six months of this thing, you really probably haven't gone through the counseling you need to go to.
Aaron Burke:You haven't had the prayer you need to.
Aaron Burke:To go into that.
Aaron Burke:But honestly, there's people that are probably listening to this.
Aaron Burke:They go, no, with the depth of this, it took longer than that.
Aaron Burke:And, you know, I leave that to you.
Aaron Burke:But.
Aaron Burke:But I would just say as quickly as possible, you know, there's a reason we do funerals the way we do funerals.
Aaron Burke:You know, we do funerals.
Aaron Burke:Funerals are not for the person that died.
Aaron Burke:I hope people know that.
Aaron Burke:Like, the person that died doesn't care.
Aaron Burke:Yeah, they're gone.
Aaron Burke:You know, they're in.
Aaron Burke:They're in heaven.
Aaron Burke:Like, they're, they're.
Aaron Burke:They're gone.
Aaron Burke:We do funerals so that you can give it a funeral, have a moment to grieve and, and move on to what God has for you next.
Aaron Burke:And so it is a part of the healing process.
Aaron Burke:So I would just say if it's been months, years, then there's something unhealthy there where you probably need to talk to a counselor, probably need to talk to a pastor, somebody where you can go, help me release this so that I can be healthy for the next person.
Aaron Sannemeier:That's.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good word.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good word.
Aaron Sannemeier:So I'm going to ask you two more questions, and I'm going to ask you to.
Aaron Sannemeier:If you pray for us.
Aaron Sannemeier:So this idea of casting vision.
Aaron Sannemeier:So we talked about those who, you know, they're.
Aaron Sannemeier:They're off the ramp and they've heard us, but now we're going back on the ramp to the people that are.
Aaron Sannemeier:We love, and everything's going awesome.
Aaron Sannemeier:So how do you continue to put the vision in front of them?
Aaron Sannemeier:Those people that have stayed, the people that have not disappointed yet.
Aaron Sannemeier:Some practical steps you're taking to continually put the vision in front of them as the leader and as a communicator.
Aaron Burke:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:It's shocking to me when I ask my, especially my core team that's around me, you know, what does our staff need to hear.
Aaron Burke:And it's shocking how much they say, remind them of the vision.
Aaron Burke:Bring them back to the early days.
Aaron Burke:Tell them why you started the church.
Aaron Burke:I'm like, this is 11 years ago.
Aaron Burke:Nobody cares about that.
Aaron Burke:No, they need to know.
Aaron Burke:They need to feel it again.
Aaron Burke:Well, I did it a few months ago.
Aaron Burke:Do it again.
Aaron Burke:Vision leaks.
Aaron Burke:And what that means is, no matter how much you think you've poured vision into somebody, it'll continually leak out, because life is hard, people are mean.
Aaron Burke:Life can get to you.
Aaron Burke:And people forget.
Aaron Burke:People lose their way when they forget their why.
Aaron Burke:And that's what you have to do.
Aaron Burke:You have to continue to remind them of the why, the vision of the house.
Aaron Burke:So I did a study, the life of Moses.
Aaron Burke:And I was shocked in how many times he reminded the people.
Aaron Burke:Land filled with milk and honey, There's a promised land ahead of us.
Aaron Burke:They heard it.
Aaron Burke:They heard it before.
Aaron Burke:They saw the seas split.
Aaron Burke:They saw the plagues.
Aaron Burke:And yet the people still rebelled because they forgot the vision.
Aaron Burke:It doesn't take long.
Aaron Burke:And then Moses has to get in front of him again and go, no, do not forsake the Lord.
Aaron Burke:He's got a land.
Aaron Burke:And so if Moses had to do it and he had those crazy miracles to confirm it, you're going to need it, despite how great things are going in your organization.
Aaron Burke:So I would say remind them constantly if you get sick of telling them the vision, they might just be getting it.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good word.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good word.
Aaron Sannemeier:Last question for you before I ask you to pray for us.
Aaron Sannemeier:Who are you learning from and what.
Aaron Sannemeier:And then how are you sharing what you're learning and into the people's lives that you're investing in.
Aaron Burke:Yeah.
Aaron Burke:You know, I do think it is vitally important that you continually be a lifelong learner listening to good podcasts.
Aaron Burke:I had a leader in my life, a guy by the name of Dino.
Aaron Burke:He was with me last week, and I sat down, I had questions for him, and I'm just asked a really good, deep questions.
Aaron Burke:And I'm just.
Aaron Burke:What I have learned is if God puts somebody in my life, I just want to make the most of it right then.
Aaron Burke:So.
Aaron Burke:And then obviously, the podcast.
Aaron Burke:Podcasts like this are just vital.
Aaron Burke:Vital to constantly learning, constantly growing.
Aaron Burke:I'm trying to read books that are outside of my group of, like, what I'm used to.
Aaron Burke:My wife and I we a book two days ago called the Benedict Option that was very interesting and by an orthodox guy, Very, very unique.
Aaron Burke:Different sphere, different thing, all, you know, very unique.
Aaron Burke:And I'm Looking at that, just going, how do I think differently about the world?
Aaron Burke:How do I think differently about life?
Aaron Burke:And so I just say, you know, I'm all about, read, read what's in your group, but also get outside, read, read different things that are going to challenge you.
Aaron Burke:And that's what I'm trying to do right now.
Aaron Sannemeier:Good word, good word.
Aaron Sannemeier:Aaron, will you pray for us?
Aaron Burke:I love that.
Aaron Burke:Lord, we thank you for the listeners here.
Aaron Burke:And I just pray that they would truly have clarity, that they would truly walk into what you've called them to do.
Aaron Burke:I pray that they would be multiplying leaders.
Aaron Burke:Lord, you tell us the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few.
Aaron Burke:And that means we need more people.
Aaron Burke:And the way we get them is that we become a better leader and we really become someone that can multiply what you're doing in our life.
Aaron Burke:I pray that you would give us the gifting to be able to spot the gold despite the dirt inside of people, even right now.
Aaron Burke:I pray that people would recognize the gold inside of people on their team that nobody else has seen, the people that they could put their arm around and say, hey, there's a call inside of you.
Aaron Burke:I do pray for people who have been hurt, who their hearts are wounded by, people who have let them down, left them.
Aaron Burke:And I pray that you would heal them, they would release it, and so that they could experience who you have to them for them next.
Aaron Burke:We thank you for the leaders on this that are listening to this, that they would truly walk into all you've called them to walk into.
Aaron Burke:In Jesus name, amen.
Aaron Burke:Amen.
