Jamie Aten on Spiritual First Aid / Back Channel with Foth
On this podcast Jamie Aten joins us to discuss spiritual first aid. Spiritual First Aid emphasizes the paramount importance of empathy over sympathy when addressing the emotional and spiritual needs of individuals in distress. We explore practical strategies for effective peer support, underscoring the significance of being present and attentive to the unique needs of those we seek to assist. Furthermore, we discuss the interconnectedness of various human needs—biological, livelihood, emotional, social, and spiritual—and how addressing them holistically can foster healing. The episode culminates in a call to action for listeners to cultivate humility and presence in their caregiving endeavors, thereby enhancing their capacity to provide meaningful support in times of crisis.
Takeaways:
- Empathy is essential when caring for those who are experiencing emotional pain, as it fosters a deeper connection.
- It is critical to understand how to bear each other's burdens without becoming overwhelmed by their pain ourselves.
- Addressing the most pressing needs of an individual can significantly impact their overall well-being and healing process.
- Humility is paramount in offering support; we must acknowledge our limitations and the importance of seeking additional help.
- Self-care is not merely a luxury but a necessity for those who provide support to others, ensuring sustained effectiveness in caring roles.
- Positive spiritual support can buffer against negative mental health effects, making the presence of a caring individual truly impactful.
Transcript
Greetings, and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to have our friend with us back of the podcast, Dick Foth on another session of Back Channel with Foath.
Speaker A:And then we're going to jump into our interview on spiritual first aid.
Speaker A:Dick, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thanks so much.
Speaker B:Wonderful to see you again, Dick.
Speaker A:As custom, I have two more questions for you.
Speaker A:Two questions the listeners sent in.
Speaker A:Number one is caring for someone who is hurt.
Speaker A:How do you care and not carry their hurts?
Speaker B:You know, I think one of the things that human beings need more than anything else when they're hurting is empathy, not sympathy.
Speaker B:You know, you can have sympathy, but that doesn't get you very far.
Speaker B:And empathy in the moment, you know, because when you're, when you're in the kind of work our listeners are in, that when they're, they're in caring lifestyle, life, there are things that just boggle your mind, situations that just weigh on you.
Speaker B:And, and I think empathy in the moment is really key.
Speaker B:But I ask myself the question, what does it mean when the scripture says, bear one another's burdens, help carry one another's burdens?
Speaker B:I think it's an instruction to help carry their hurts.
Speaker B:Again, it doesn't mean we live there, but it does mean that part of our privilege is to help carry that.
Speaker B:As a young pastor, I had this thought that somehow when somebody came to me that I had to fix it, that somehow I had to be the answer.
Speaker B:And of course, in a congregation, in a mission, sometimes folks get elevated, not because they try to have grandiose ideas of themselves, but people will want an answer person.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think in my life, I've come to the place where I say, I don't know that I need an answer person, but I would like to talk to somebody who could ask me a question that makes me think about this in a different way.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:And so I, I think bearing one another's burdens now, oftentimes when the burden is a relational fracture, which are some of the biggest burdens people have, people think, well, cancer is the biggest one.
Speaker B:Well, I think cancer of the soul may be the biggest one.
Speaker B:But, but, but how do I help carry somebody's burden when.
Speaker B:When they've been offended or hurt or disappointed or angered?
Speaker B:How do I do it without not taking up their offense?
Speaker B:Does that, does that make sense?
Speaker B:That does.
Speaker B:It does that.
Speaker B:Sometimes in me wanting to help somebody, I take up their offense, and I really don't have the.
Speaker B:I really don't have the context for what they have been Offended by or why they have been.
Speaker B:I've been with numbers of people who are very easily offended, very hard to work with folks who are very easily offended.
Speaker B:But one of the things that I come to in this way is saying, jesus, if you're not here, if you're not in this, we're toast.
Speaker B:So I think empathy in the moment and trusting God for the long haul are sort of twins for me.
Speaker B:Those are flip sides.
Speaker B:The same good word.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:My friend Arnold, he.
Speaker A:He shares.
Speaker A:He said we were having a conversation about being offended.
Speaker A:He said, you know, I've.
Speaker A:I've chosen in life not to have my big toe stuck out for people to step on.
Speaker A:And it's made me.
Speaker A:When I've become offended or something, it just, It's a good metaphor for me to think, do I just have my big toe out, ready for somebody to step on it?
Speaker A:And just a practical thing.
Speaker A:All right, Dick, second question.
Speaker A:Any resources you can suggest for me on how I can pastor and not allow spiritual hurt to become a part of all my messages.
Speaker B:So I'm assuming that this question means the.
Speaker B:The questioners.
Speaker B:The questioner's personal hurt.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Not heard of other.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's the way it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's the way I.
Speaker A:The way they wrote it.
Speaker A:That's how.
Speaker B:So I.
Speaker B:Before I have said this idea of being vulnerable has merit even.
Speaker B:Even from the pulpit, within.
Speaker B:Within reason and within context.
Speaker B:But there's a difference between being vulnerable and being a Johnny.
Speaker B:One note.
Speaker B:It was interesting.
Speaker B:Ruth and I were watching something last night on television, and it was a forensic psychologist talking, saying that trauma, your brain reacts to trauma in a certain way.
Speaker B:And some of us have traumas that become the lens for the rest of our lives.
Speaker B:And trauma can be physical, it can be emotional, whatever, But.
Speaker B:But don't let the trauma.
Speaker B:You have to ask.
Speaker B:I believe the Holy Spirit to help that trauma, that difficult, bad, sometimes crushing thing, not become the life theme that you have.
Speaker B:I often joke that people, especially preacher types, you know, they have life themes.
Speaker B:I have friends who can start in the map section of their Bibles, end up on prayer, you know, or if a person.
Speaker B:If a person comes to faith because they were physically healed, let's say.
Speaker B:And so that's always part of what they're talking about.
Speaker B:I can start anywhere in scripture and end up on relationship.
Speaker B:It's just, you know, I can do the genealogy thing and end up.
Speaker B:So my own spiritual hurt or another hurt that, That I feel connected to cannot become a life Theme for me, if I want to be effective, if I want to life, my own trauma can get in the way of that.
Speaker B:The other side of that is that that becomes fodder for helping other people.
Speaker B:And so, for example, I speak to university students sometimes in state university campuses, and I say, I'm going to say something to you that at least half of you in the room will identify with.
Speaker B:And that is, I come from a broken home.
Speaker B:Often I'll pause and say, now, you know often how that feels.
Speaker B:Depending on your age.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker B:In your head, you're saying, boy, things will never be the same again.
Speaker B:Which is true.
Speaker B:And the second thing is, I wonder if this is genetic.
Speaker B:Depending on the age, you know, if you're a teenager, for example, and that happens.
Speaker B:And so the point of identification with hurt, you know, you have the book of Isaiah talking about Jesus as the suffering servant, and people don't identify with your victories, Aaron.
Speaker B:I know I had several victories, really achievements.
Speaker B:And people either don't identify because they can't get a handle on, or they don't care.
Speaker A:I'm just putting that probably they don't care.
Speaker A:Probably the don't care, but.
Speaker B:But they absolutely identify with your suffering.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The cross allows me to identify with the suffering of Jesus as he identifies with mine.
Speaker B: So Matthew: Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That piece is huge.
Speaker B:So spiritual Hurt must inform, but it cannot.
Speaker B:If it.
Speaker B:If it encases me or infects me, then my message is the emphasis on the mess.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Of that word.
Speaker B:And I think that the thing is, I can say I come from a broken home.
Speaker B:And let me tell you about how Jesus has helped me walk through that, because that really wasn't it.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And it ends up with Christ in you.
Speaker B:The hope of glory.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:It.
Speaker B:It isn't about just how you handle it.
Speaker B:It's about how he's handling it in you as you stay open to him.
Speaker B:And I don't think I've always done it.
Speaker B:Well, I. I'm confessing that, you know, it's going around the world here, but.
Speaker B:But I'm still here and we're good, so.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:Good word, Dick.
Speaker A:Always appreciate the wisdom and insight you share.
Speaker A:And, yeah, it's always right on point.
Speaker A:We're going to go our interview on spiritual first aid.
Speaker A:Well, there's no time better than now to get started, so here we go.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker A:So Excited to have a new friend of the podcast, Jamie.
Speaker A:Jamie, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker C:Well, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker A:Jamie, I got to spend some time with you going through spiritual first aid, but probably the most people listening in haven't got to spend that much time with you yet.
Speaker A:So you go ahead and just share a little bit about yourself and then I got a good bit of questions to ask you.
Speaker C:So my name is Jamie Ayton and I'm co founder of Spiritual First Aid.
Speaker C:I'm also the founder of the Humanitarian Disaster Institute at Wheaton College where I'm a professor.
Speaker C:And so I grew up in a small little rural farming community, one four way stop and proud to say now we have one red blinking light over that four way stop where I grew up but now live in the Chicago area as I teach at Wheaton College.
Speaker A:Wow, that's a pretty unique specialty.
Speaker A:Can you share just some of the Genesis story?
Speaker A:How did you end up in a place where spiritual first aid and you say relief and development kind of as at Wheaton or maybe not?
Speaker C:Yeah, no, that's exactly the case and in fact it was not part of the plan.
Speaker C:So what I thought I was going to do when so I'm a psychologist by training and worked as a youth man, youth minister while I was going through college for a while and then after I graduated I went to Southern Miss where I thought I was going to study rural mental health disparities.
Speaker C:So that's really kind of what I thought I was going to spend my career doing.
Speaker C:And then six days after moving in, Hurricane Katrina struck our community.
Speaker C:And so right away I saw the important role that everyday helpers and churches and Christian organizations play.
Speaker C:But at the same time that there wasn't really good guidance for how to provide spiritual emotional care that was biblically sound based on research and that could deal with trauma.
Speaker C:And so that that experience really led to what evolved into spiritual first aid today.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Good deal.
Speaker A:Well, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker A:It was very encouraging and honestly gave me some tools and some things I've already been able to already been able to use.
Speaker A:So can you just share.
Speaker A:So what was somebody listening in?
Speaker A:What is spiritual for first aid and what is it not?
Speaker C:So spiritual First Aid is a lay helper program.
Speaker C:So one of the things that we really wanted to do was to take the guesswork out of helping because we believe that every single person can make a difference when it comes to spiritual emotional struggles to that others have been.
Speaker C:So it teaches how to provide peer to peer care for everything from mild Stress to mass trauma.
Speaker C:And so when I say peer to peer, just simply meaning that you don't have to be a professional counselor.
Speaker C:So here's the part that it's not, it's not teaching you to be a psychologist like myself, it's not teaching you to be a healthcare provider, but instead it's to take those gifts, those natural helping skills that you already have to learn when and how, and to use them in the right way.
Speaker C:Because our research shows that when people experience loving, caring relationships with other people done in an effective manner, that it can help to reduce everything from anxiety, depression, stress, and even ptsd.
Speaker A:And that's one thing I valued throughout the spiritual first aid.
Speaker A:Is it the, the research that you've put into this, this is not just a good idea that maybe you thought up and said, let's put it.
Speaker A:But the.
Speaker A:As a scientist myself, I love, I love that, that part of it.
Speaker A:And so you share actually three things that spiritually informed, evidence based, and trauma informed.
Speaker A:What are some reasons those three are vitally important and that you've chose to kind of focus on those three things?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Spiritually informed, evidence based, and trauma informed.
Speaker C:Well, for us, one of the most important things was we wanted to make sure that everything that we were teaching others was biblically based.
Speaker C:So every major step that we teach, you can go right back into scripture and find guidance for that.
Speaker C:So, you know, where better to start than with God's word?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So we wanted to make sure that what we were doing was really grounded in scripture and then in terms of the evidence base.
Speaker C:So that's one of the things I get super excited about, is research.
Speaker C:And I realize not a whole lot of people do, but I love research.
Speaker C:And one of the reasons is that I've often been asked to be an evaluator of other training programs over my career.
Speaker C:And one of the things that I found is sometimes we have the best intentions and we start rolling out programs, but we've never actually paused long enough to ask, does this actually work and why?
Speaker C:And, you know, are there ways that we can improve it?
Speaker C:So for us, we spent 15 years of doing research all around the globe and then translated that into something that was simple and easy to use.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, I know nobody's going to get excited if I start talking about like, oh, well, you know what you ought to do here based on, you know, doing a, we need to run an anova and we need to go through, do all these statistical programs.
Speaker C:Your eyes are going to start to kind of blur over.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So what we've done instead was to take all that research and do the heavy lifting and to turn it into something that everybody can use without having to have that background, but also so that you can be confident in the care that you give.
Speaker C:And then the last part for us being trauma informed is that we're not saying that everybody has trauma.
Speaker C:I think that's something we have to be cautious of, but at the same time to recognize that research does show.
Speaker C:See, there again, I'm back to my research.
Speaker C:But the research shows that about 70% of adults will have experienced a major trauma at some point in their life.
Speaker C:So we need to be prepared for the fact that we're likely going to encounter others that have gone through some really difficult times.
Speaker C:And if we're aware of that going in, it helps to shape the way that we understand and view people.
Speaker C:You know, I just think about when I worked as a youth minister and some kids, you know, would sometimes act up.
Speaker C:And looking back, I realized, oh, my goodness, you know, now little Billy over here, maybe he did have some behavioral issues, but maybe Susan, her acting up, maybe that's because she'd had a trauma that she'd been through just a year earlier and was acting out in response to that.
Speaker C:So part of our training, too, is to help us just to kind of open our eyes to the challenges that people face.
Speaker A:You mentioned about people, the amount of people that do experience trauma.
Speaker A:And so how do you.
Speaker A:Does.
Speaker A:Is there a pathway or a similar way that each person responds to trauma?
Speaker A:Is it differently?
Speaker A:Does it.
Speaker A:You mentioned, is it, like, depend on family of origin just as we begin?
Speaker A:Because some of the.
Speaker A:I have more questions there, but just on that idea of trauma, because it is.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think we're talking about it more today than we have in the past.
Speaker A:But just how do we.
Speaker A:Does everyone respond the same way?
Speaker C:That's a great question.
Speaker C:And the reality is that there are some different characteristics or some signs and responses that are pretty typical when somebody has gone through trauma.
Speaker C:But at the same time, people express it in so many different ways.
Speaker C:So some common signs and symptoms tend to be things like we start to see maybe some shifts in our behavior, a little bit more agitated or on edge, for example, trouble sleeping.
Speaker C:So that's coming from our bodies, kind of going into that fight or flight mode that's meant to actually protect us, but when there's no longer a threat and it continues to stay around, can start to have problems in our everyday life.
Speaker C:And then another common problem is that we might see things like flashbacks or have intrusive thoughts where these ideas of what we've been through just kind of keep coming back almost on a regular basis.
Speaker C:So those are some common examples that signs and symptoms.
Speaker C:But in the reality of things, we all experience trauma slightly different.
Speaker C:And in fact, one of the reasons why it can sometimes be hard to know like what is a trauma even is the fact that it's so highly subjective, you know, so I'm a die hard Cubs fan my whole life and I sometimes joke that the real reason wasn't the fact that I've been through disaster, but that I'm a Cubs fan.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I know what trauma and suffering are and we sometimes throw around words like that and they start to lose their meaning.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But at the end of the day, trauma is subjective, you know, I wouldn't say it's about being a Cubs fan, but it is subjective in that it's not just what we've been through, but what we perceive we've been through.
Speaker C:So that's why you might have two people that go through almost an identical event, maybe the same event, maybe they both lose their homes, they lose their jobs, yet one person seems to be more resilient during that time.
Speaker C:Well, it comes down to not just what occurred, but very much how we interpreted what we've been through.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow, good word.
Speaker A:And I could ask 15 more questions on that, but I won't, I won't do that to you.
Speaker A:So Bless, Bless Needs.
Speaker A:I love that there's an acronym because that's, I remember so much better when there, there, there is.
Speaker A:So what are the, what are, what are these blessed needs?
Speaker A:And, and some reasons they're so vital in spiritual first aid.
Speaker C:So the blessed needs is really at the heart of what spiritual first aid is all about.
Speaker C:That we want to be able to provide care for the entire person.
Speaker C:You know, we look through again going back to sc, we see that Christ cared for the spiritual lives of others, but he also cared for the whole person of helping the blind to see, to help mend relationships.
Speaker C:And that's what we're really trying to emulate with spiritual first aid.
Speaker C:And so as we think about these blessed needs, they stand for the B stands for biological.
Speaker C:So that's things like our health, our physical well being.
Speaker C:And then the L stands for livelihood.
Speaker C:So that's things like our social economic status, you know, do I have a job, do I have a place to sleep and stay, that sort of thing.
Speaker C:And then E is our emotional needs.
Speaker C:So that's our mental health, our behaviors, our thoughts and our actions.
Speaker C:And then we have the first S, which stands for social.
Speaker C:So that's our need to belong and connect, be in relationships with other people.
Speaker C:And then the last S stands for spiritual needs.
Speaker C:So that's our connection with God, our involvement in church, our beliefs, our values, being able to find meaning and purpose.
Speaker C:And the reason why these blessed needs are so important is that they're all highly interconnected.
Speaker C:So from 15 years of research that we've been able to do, we've been able to show that when one or more of those needs go unmet, that it causes psychological distress, it increases the likelihood, and that they're also all very interconnected.
Speaker C:Think of them kind of like a Rubik's Cube, right?
Speaker C:Like that puzzle.
Speaker C:Maybe you played the square here, right?
Speaker C:And it's got all the little tiles that oftentimes when people come with a problem, they don't come with just one.
Speaker C:They come probably with enough problems to fill up every single tile on that Rubik's Cube that might be playing with.
Speaker C:And that can feel really overwhelming.
Speaker C:But instead of trying to solve everything, if we can figure out what that person's most pressing blessed need is, and we push on that, so to speak, or meet that need, it shifts the whole thing.
Speaker C:In the same way that a Rubik's Cube is made, the whole side is going to shift.
Speaker C:So you might be caring for somebody, say in a disaster situation who is really thirsty and what they need is a bottle of water.
Speaker C:You may never have thought about providing a cup of water or bottle of water as a mental health intervention, but I guarantee if that person is thir.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker C:And the same thing, right, that if it's mental health, that that's going to impact our physical well being.
Speaker C:So all these pieces are interconnected.
Speaker C:So when we can help address that one need, we can start to care for the whole person.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:And I heard you say that it's in general, it's.
Speaker A:It's the person, it's not the person who's providing care that decides what one of those is important.
Speaker A:It's more the.
Speaker A:The person that you're caring for.
Speaker A:And is that a conversation you have or do you discern that or how do you.
Speaker A:How do you begin to figure out what's important for that person at that time?
Speaker C:Sorry.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So one of the things that.
Speaker C:The way that we really teach spiritual first aid and then like, how do you put these blessed needs into practice, right?
Speaker C:So not to just understand things, but how do you actually get some tools to be able to be equipped and take action and put these things into practice.
Speaker C:And so the other part is that we teach blessing that we call cpr.
Speaker C:And the C stands for caring with practical presence.
Speaker C:And then we've got, um, Excuse me.
Speaker C:So the bless in bless CPR stands for triaging the blessed needs.
Speaker C:So that's kind of that conversation that you were asking about that we want to be able to look at.
Speaker C:What are their behaviors?
Speaker C:What are they sharing with us?
Speaker C:You know, we're listening to them, and then we're going to start from there to invite them to help us identify.
Speaker C:What is that most pressing need?
Speaker C:You know, I don't know about you, Aaron, but I've had many a conversation where I was providing care to someone, and they start sharing, and I think right away, oh, I know exactly what they need, right?
Speaker C:And here's the problem that they're having.
Speaker C:And, you know, I try to give out some advice, and it goes nowhere.
Speaker C:And the reason is that I was trying to be the expert instead of allowing them to be the expert in their situation.
Speaker C:And if we approach with humility and we simply ask, you know, what is that most pressing need?
Speaker C:More often than not, you'll find out that we're probably wrong with what we're thinking.
Speaker C:In fact, that person may surprise you.
Speaker C:You know, in our curriculum.
Speaker C:One of the things that I share is about a time where I was responding after a disaster.
Speaker C:And this.
Speaker C:This man who we came across, he'd lost everything.
Speaker C:He had all these different problems, and I was trying to figure out what was wrong, and I thought I knew it.
Speaker C:You know, one after the other solution that I came up with was just going nowhere.
Speaker C:And finally I just paused and I asked, you know, what is the thing you need help with most right now?
Speaker C:And his response still stays with me today, which was, I don't know where my dog is.
Speaker C:I lost my dog.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:And that would have.
Speaker C:I could have stood there talking to that man for 100 years, and I would have never guessed it.
Speaker C:Now, obviously, I couldn't go out and find his dog for him, but I did know of a group that was there responding, that used comfort dogs and was able to get him connected.
Speaker C:And from there, he was like, okay, now let's talk about how else you can help.
Speaker C:But it wasn't until I took care of that most pressing need until we could actually jump into what he needed for his mental health, Jamie.
Speaker A:And you kind of highlighted it there.
Speaker A:So maybe somebody's listening in and they're thinking, well, I'm afraid to ask questions because I'M afraid I'm going to bring up things that are hurtful and I don't want to hurt them again.
Speaker A:If I ask, like, what their need is and then maybe somebody's thinking, yeah, but then if I ask what they need and I can't, like, you couldn't find that man's dog.
Speaker A:Like, then they feel like I'm in an awkward position.
Speaker A:I've asked to help.
Speaker A:How do you navigate that and how do you push through the.
Speaker A:Maybe the awkwardness or maybe it's fear.
Speaker A:Maybe it's fear or, you know, just an insecurity.
Speaker A:That one, if I ask, then I'm going to bring it back up for them.
Speaker A:Or two, then, you know, if I ask and I don't know the answer, I can't help them, then I feel inadequate.
Speaker A:Is that a fair question?
Speaker C:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker C:And you know, I've spent my whole career, so this is.
Speaker C:I'm now 20 years into doing this type of work and I still have those fears on occasion.
Speaker C:You know, I put my foot in my mouth sometimes by accident still.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So even though I'm teaching on these things and spending my career doing it, it's still something that I struggle with on a regular basis.
Speaker C:But the thing that we have found, both my colleague Kent and I, Ken Annan, who's the co founder of Spiritual First Aid, and our own personal experiences, as well as from the research that we've done, a big factor that can help with this is approaching care with humility.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So knowing our strengths and weaknesses, knowing our limitations, and knowing that we're not going to be able to fix everything, but I can try my best to help that person.
Speaker C:And at the end of the day, what I think is most important for us to remember is that it's not about having all the right answers.
Speaker C:It's not being able to know exactly what to do.
Speaker C:But at the end of the day, what really matters most is our presence.
Speaker C:So our presence says more than any words we could ever say.
Speaker C:So if you don't know what to say, that's okay.
Speaker C:Say, I don't know what to say.
Speaker C:If you don't know what to do, own that approach with humility.
Speaker C:People will respond well to that.
Speaker C:And what they're going to remember is that you were there with them and that you sat in those moments of challenge that they were facing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Jamie, you mentioned throughout the training I took notes on and one of the things was being a humble helper.
Speaker A:And I think that just the wording of that, I had never seen those Two together.
Speaker A:But it really resonated with me.
Speaker A:So is that what you're talking about, being a humble helper, not feeling like you have to have all the answers and not trained?
Speaker A:Honestly, Sometimes I think we try to play God, right?
Speaker A:God has all the answers.
Speaker A:He's omnipresent, he's perfect.
Speaker A:He's in control.
Speaker A:We're really not that.
Speaker A:But a humble helper.
Speaker A:Any more on that?
Speaker A:On the importance of that?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, unfortunately, I've seen too often in all kinds of different helping situations where helpers come in and have a bit of a hero complex.
Speaker C:So kind of like what you were saying, kind of trying to play God a little bit.
Speaker C:And more often than not, what people really need is for us to leave the capes at home.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:What they need are people with a humble heart and humble hands.
Speaker C:You know, just think back to a missionary trip that I was on back in college.
Speaker C:It was my first trip, and like that.
Speaker C:And I was in Haiti, and I was all excited to go.
Speaker C:And when I showed up, the missionary said, hey, we need you to move rocks from this side of the ditch over to this side of the ditch.
Speaker C:And I was like, wait a minute.
Speaker C:I hopped on a plane, I came to Haiti, and I'm going to spend my week literally just moving rocks from one side of the ditch to the next.
Speaker C:And I hate to admit that, but that was my own arrogance and pride in the way.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker C:And it really taught me it.
Speaker C:By the end of that trip, one, I was a little sore, right?
Speaker C:Physically.
Speaker C:But also I was a little.
Speaker C:I have to be honest, my pride was a little sore.
Speaker C:And I realized that that pride was getting in the way.
Speaker C:And in fact, to me, it didn't seem like it required a lot, but that was such an important job.
Speaker C:I later found out that the reason why they were doing that was to prevent flooding from happening in the community.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But here I am thinking that I'm doing, you know, should be doing something bigger and better.
Speaker C:And what they really needed was those humble hearts and hands.
Speaker C:And so that's something that we try to teach as well in our course, because when we approach it with humility, it also makes sure that our motivation is in check, Right.
Speaker C:That if we maybe want to go in and help because we want to be seen as a good person, or maybe we just want to know kind of what's going on in somebody's life, we're more likely to cause harm than help.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Good words.
Speaker A:Good words.
Speaker A:Somebody that's.
Speaker A:That's caring.
Speaker A:I really appreciated you you shared about self care and maybe some.
Speaker A:Some steps that we can take proactively before we walk into an opportunity to care, and then after we've cared for some people?
Speaker A:So would you be able to share about some of the proactive steps that we can take so we're ready and in a place to care for somebody?
Speaker A:And then after we've walked with maybe a difficult situation, a trauma or a crisis, how we can care for ourselves after?
Speaker A:Is.
Speaker A:Is that.
Speaker A:Is that a fair question?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, I think that need to care for ourselves well is so important that as helpers, and I know many who are listening are working in missions that, you know, we see the need in front of us, and it is so great.
Speaker C:But one of the things that we have to remember is that those that we're caring for now in the moment, they're also going to need us in the long term.
Speaker C:And so we need to really approach the care that we give with a bit of a perspective of having this work as a marathon, not just a sprint, because if we try to sprint all out, we're going to burn out.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And so one of the things that's important is that we care for ourselves, you know, before and while we're caring for others again, coming back to knowing our limits, but then also caring well for ourselves after we've shared and provided support for others.
Speaker C:Because we did a conference one time and there was a chaplain that came that spoke and said.
Speaker C:Something that has stuck with me was that he had said that as helpers, we're much more like duct tape than we are Kevlar.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And what he was meaning by that is that by us as helpers, we kind of got that unique kind of adhesive quality to who we are as people that, you know, as a helper, we come along and we kind of help hold people together in their time of need.
Speaker C:There's that kind of stickiness to us as caring people.
Speaker C:And we'd like, though, to think that we're more like Kevlar, that everything just bounces right off of us, but that's not true.
Speaker C:And the more that we care, the more it's kind of sinking that happens in the duct tape.
Speaker C:If you keep reapplying it over and over, it can start to lose some of its stickiness.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And that can happen to us where those stories that we heard, those difficulties start to stick with us and can start to make us not be as effective.
Speaker C:So we want to make sure that we take those steps now.
Speaker C:At the same time, One of the things when it comes to self care, I don't know about you, but, and maybe some of the listeners here, but when I often hear the word self care, I actually feel more stressed when I hear that term.
Speaker C:And the reason for that is that there was one day I was driving to work and I had my radio on and the host had a panel of all these experts on self care and they were talking about all the things you need to do to care well for yourself.
Speaker C:So being the researcher I am, as soon as I got back to my office, I put on my thinking cap, pulled out the calculator and I started figuring out how much time would it actually take me to do all of these things these experts said.
Speaker C:And I realized it was going to take more time than I have in any given day.
Speaker C:So one of the things that we approach self care with is to think of it a little bit more like self aid that you can think of it where what are those small things I can do throughout the day to keep things from getting worse, but then also to know when we need to really slow down, do that extra renewal work work and then maybe take time and have a break even.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's a good word.
Speaker A:Because you know, our mission vision of the organization that I serve is to establish a church among all peoples everywhere.
Speaker A:At times you could, you could as a missionary just spend your whole life trying to be healthy.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Because you just said you could.
Speaker A:There's more hours in the day to care for myself than I really have.
Speaker A:And I could just.
Speaker A:You can easily get into a place where we're just caring for myself and there are times and seasons for that, that.
Speaker A:But if it becomes a lifestyle that you know, you're just caring for yourself, then it's hard to establish the church because we're just, we're just trying to be healthy ourselves.
Speaker A:And so it's, it is a tension point of wanting to be healthy.
Speaker A:And so that's one of the reasons I wanted to, wanted to ask, ask that question.
Speaker A:Are there are the things that you've seen through the research and over the years of focusing on this, some, maybe some mistakes people make when it becomes comes to self care or not, or maybe entering into a place when they're not in a healthy place to try to care for others.
Speaker A:Any other thoughts on that?
Speaker C:Yeah, you know, one of the things that's kind of ironic, but I know it's true myself and I've seen it in so many others is that oftentimes when we start to really get stressed the things that previously had helped us and to keep us well, we tend to just throw those things out the door.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Okay, so I had mentioned that I'm a professor and every time towards the end of every semester I start to see this with students where what is it they do?
Speaker C:They start staying up later, they start drinking way too much coffee, you know, they're eating way too many Cheetos to try to stay awake at night when what they actually need is just to get some sleep and to have some healthy pacing and they're probably going to do better.
Speaker C:And so one of the things that we encourage when it comes to self care is just to remember what worked for you before.
Speaker C:You know, what are those healthy practices that you enjoy?
Speaker C:Making sure that we're staying grounded in scripture and prayer and to care for our overall self.
Speaker A:Yeah, good word, good word.
Speaker A:Many of those that are listening in will have the opportunities when there is a crisis or there's been a traumatic event to share publicly.
Speaker A:Maybe that's to a pastoral word, maybe that's a devotion, maybe that's to encourage maybe people they serve with on their team.
Speaker A:You provided a guide on, on what to speak on.
Speaker A:And I think it was preach hope, hope humbly, comfort, community and service.
Speaker A:How do those, I love that because it helped me, it gives me talking points.
Speaker A:How do those help a community?
Speaker A:How do those principles help towards healing?
Speaker C:Well, one of the things that I've known and been able to see and again experience firsthand, like I think about Hurricane Katrina, that my wife and I, we didn't realize Katrina was coming towards us in Mississippi that, that first Sunday that we were there.
Speaker C:And it wasn't until we got to church where the pastor got up and started sharing and then seeing again through Hurricane Gustav, just the power that can be given from the pulpit or you know, even just one on one conversations.
Speaker C:And if we're not cautious, those words can either bring healing and comfort or they can divide and shame people.
Speaker C:And so we want to approach it with humility.
Speaker C:The other thing is sometimes I think as leaders we feel like we have to have our acts completely together when in reality there's something powerful to have some vulnerability.
Speaker C:Now I'm not saying we over disclose as a leader, but finding that that spot of being able to say where maybe we don't know what to do.
Speaker C:So let me give you an example.
Speaker C:We did a study after a mass shooting that happened in Oregon and we interviewed a number of pastors and the pastor that I connected with most and whose congregation I saw responded with such great support of one another.
Speaker C:Father was that he came in, he said, you know, church, I don't know what to preach today.
Speaker C:I don't know what words to say.
Speaker C:And I'm hurting.
Speaker C:And I know you're hurting.
Speaker C:And just right away that set a tone.
Speaker C:But then he also shared.
Speaker C:And even though I don't know what to say, I know that God hears my heart.
Speaker C:He hears your hearts as well.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That he was speaking what everybody in that room was feeling.
Speaker C:And by him being authentic in that way, being humble, admitting that he didn't have all the answers, it actually restored even more faith in him as a leader and people were more willing to follow his lead.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:And I think that's some of the challenge that after you really don't know what to say and you're afraid you're going to say the wrong thing, and then at least from.
Speaker A:In my life, then you go to the friction point of just saying, well, there's too much friction there.
Speaker A:I just won't say anything.
Speaker A:And so is there a.
Speaker A:Have you seen in the research.
Speaker A:Is saying nothing?
Speaker A:Is it better to say I don't.
Speaker A:There's probably.
Speaker A:It's not an or statement.
Speaker A:But does silence.
Speaker A:How does that speak?
Speaker A:Does.
Speaker A:Does that.
Speaker A:Is that a fair question?
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, that is.
Speaker C:And you know, our words and our silence both speak and can both speak loudly.
Speaker C:And so especially if we're talking about something like a traumatic event, maybe it's happened in your community, maybe it was a suicide, or maybe it was just a horrible accident or there was an apartment fire, whatever.
Speaker C:It might be that it's better just to name what has occurred.
Speaker C:You don't have to go always into a lot of detail, but likely everybody in the room is thinking about it and it's better to acknowledge it.
Speaker C:And maybe then to be able to use a moment of silence and prayer to be able to take that to God, but to acknowledge it.
Speaker C:And if we don't, people in the room oftentimes are going to start to read into that one way or the other.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:Wow, wow.
Speaker A:Maybe there's somebody that's listening into this and they're.
Speaker A:They're getting anxious just thinking about helping others because they don't know what to say.
Speaker A:Or maybe there's some past traumas in their life that maybe they don't feel like they've processed or worked through any words of advice for somebody.
Speaker A:Just the idea of saying it just, you know, that's not me, you know, or they begin.
Speaker A:They can feel the anxiousness whether that's the tightness in their chest or gastric reflux or they get a headache or whatever their thing is when they get stressed.
Speaker A:Any words of encouragement or wisdom for them if they're just feeling anxious, just have.
Speaker A:Having.
Speaker A:Just listening to this podcast about helping people in a time of need.
Speaker C:Well, first of all, I don't want to make you feel anxious.
Speaker C:So spiritual first aid is trying to do the opposite of that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So with that, though, I do think again, this kind of comes back to that humility of knowing both what our strengths and our weaknesses are and being able to own that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So, like, there are certain things that may come up when I'm helping with someone, someone that I realized, like, okay, that's an area for me that I'm going to have a hard time staying objective, or maybe that's pulling up some stuff that I didn't even realize was still there in my life.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And when that happens, I can know then that it's okay that I don't have to carry all that person's weight by myself, that I do what I can to be able to identify what their need is, try to provide some basic coping, be there for them as much as I can in terms of presence.
Speaker C:And then the last step is of the blessed CPR model is to refer and resource.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:So if you're starting to struggle, know that maybe you need to move a little more quickly to getting that person connected to someone else then who can continue to care for them, even though you're not available to do so.
Speaker C:And it doesn't mean that you failed.
Speaker C:Quite the opposite of that.
Speaker C:Being able to get others to other people and resources and maybe professional care, if that's what's needed, is actually one of the most helpful things that we can do to care for others.
Speaker C:That this isn't something that we can do all by ourselves.
Speaker C:That, that it helps us to think about, you know, the helping as the body of Christ.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:There's hands, there's feet, you know, there's all of this.
Speaker C:It takes the whole body of Christ to care.
Speaker C:And so we all just have a small role in it.
Speaker C:We don't have to be the whole body.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:When it comes to referring and resourcing any, any best practices or things you've learned, well, this works well.
Speaker A:This might not work well is just, you know, maybe giving somebody a pamphlet, does that work well, what are, what are some things when it comes to those referring and resources, nursing to make sure that, that it's well received, you.
Speaker C:Know, One of the things I've found to be helpful is to just start with letting people know why you're making the referral for them.
Speaker C:So let's give an example of where, say I'm talking to someone and, you know, you kind of gave the example of maybe anxiousness and maybe they're even having panic attacks at some point.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:That in that sort of case I'm going to let them know that the reason why I'm trying to refer you or making a referral is because I don't want to talk to you.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But quite the opposite, that it's because I care for that person, that I want to help them, that I've noticed that they seem to be struggling in this area of their life and maybe this is how I've, you know, related to that experience as well.
Speaker C:And then from there to be able to tell them, here's some different options.
Speaker C:And I wonder if any of these options do you think would be helpful for you?
Speaker C:Because again, they may have already tried something that they know is not going to work for them.
Speaker C:So you might help them think about a couple different options and then give them that kind of empowerment to choose from that.
Speaker C:And then don't just say you need to talk to someone, provide a name, provide a location.
Speaker C:Here's how I know that person.
Speaker C:You know, maybe they helped a friend of mine, you know, that you're wanting to give as much detail as you can because otherwise that person is just going to hear like, okay, I ought to talk to someone, but then who?
Speaker C:And then they don't know where to look even.
Speaker C:So be as specific as you can.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I would imagine when you're going through a difficult situation, you get decision fatigue.
Speaker A:And so if people can help you to not act on friction points, but take the friction points out of the information's there, it's less work.
Speaker A:And if you're already overwhelmed, I think you would be tired from that.
Speaker A:So if we can help with that process, that would be good.
Speaker A:Jamie, obviously you're the expert on this.
Speaker A:Is there a question or two I should have asked that?
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:If you're thinking, Aaron, you went through this, this.
Speaker A:If you would have really paid attention or you would have been a good student, you're the professor in this.
Speaker A:I did take lots of notes.
Speaker A:But are there things that you, obviously you've spent a lot of your life and work into developing spiritual first aid.
Speaker A:Any things that you think you would like to highlight that I didn't ask you about?
Speaker C:Well, you know, I think you really asked, you know, so many great questions, and so I can't really think of any there.
Speaker C:But I just kind of want to go back to if it's okay and just revisit that idea of practical presence, because I think it is just so important.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And again, it doesn't mean that you have to be an expert to be a helper.
Speaker C:So I mentioned the project that we did in Oregon after the mass shooting.
Speaker C:Well, we did a study there.
Speaker C:We did one after Hurricane Matthew.
Speaker C:We did it with cancer survivors and a number of other situations where people were providing help in all these challenging times.
Speaker C:And one of the things that we found was that when people reported that they received positive spiritual support, that those negative mental health effects, like I mentioned earlier, anxiety, depression, PTSD tended to be buffered against.
Speaker C:And you notice though, Aaron, that I said positive spiritual support because I don't know about you, but did you grow up in a church?
Speaker C:Ever attend one that had a.
Speaker C:Where you had a gossip chain in your church?
Speaker C:I mean, a prayer chain.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like sometimes our support isn't always positive, but when we do truly show up just to listen and to hear people and that we're just with them, the research time and time again shows that that makes a world of differ.
Speaker C:So again, it's not about having to have the right words.
Speaker C:It's not having to have all the right skills.
Speaker C:At the end of the day, it's about showing up, being authentic and just being there with people is what truly makes the difference.
Speaker C:And with spiritual first aid, we have tried to give you those extra tools and skills, but also we want you to have the confidence of knowing that God's already given you what you need to be able to make a difference in other people's lives.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:And you know, to segue off that question, you just hit on that.
Speaker A:On confidentiality.
Speaker C:Reality.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so the reality when we were caring for somebody in spiritual first aid, how do you navigate those?
Speaker A:Confident.
Speaker A:Because you're having conversations with somebody and you don't want it to turn into a gossip or sharing information that really wasn't yours to share.
Speaker A:Any wisdom for somebody listening in on how to navigate those conversations so that they're not over sharing and they're not keeping things that maybe they should be sharing.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:No, Great, great question.
Speaker C:So I think a good rule of thumb is to understand why we might be sharing one way or the other.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:That we want to make sure that we're sharing in the best interest of that person that we're providing Care for.
Speaker C:And the same thing too, even about our own selves.
Speaker C:You know, like I mentioned earlier about finding that kind of sweet spot as a leader, being able to be authentic.
Speaker C:But also, you know, it doesn't mean you have to air out all of your laundry.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And sometimes we do that as helpers.
Speaker C:So we have to be cautious on that front.
Speaker C:But also we don't want to air out the laundry of somebody else's life lives to everyone either.
Speaker C:So we want to protect, you know, what has been shared with us, but also to know that there's limitations on that, that as a helper we do have a duty, that if somebody shares that they're thinking about hurting themselves or someone else, that that's when we need to make sure that we're talking to others.
Speaker C:So even as a psychologist, whenever I'm talking to somebody and I find out that maybe their thought of hurting themselves, like suicide or hurting someone else, that I always get consultation, I talk to another person.
Speaker C:So if you're part of an organization, you know the policies that you have in place, if it's an emergency, you know, call 911-OR988 right away.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's good word, good word because I, I think that's, you know, as people following Jesus, the last thing we want to do is tell people's, people's stories and then feel like that they had.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That they lack, lack trust and confidence in us because we've shared things that weren't, weren't meant to be shared.
Speaker A:So any good word?
Speaker A:Well, Jamie, it has been a phenomenal time spending with you, learning from you.
Speaker A:Thank you for what you've put together.
Speaker A:Access Spiritual first aid.
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:So to be able to get connected, you can just go to spiritualfirstaid.org and you'll find our website, a number of free resources.
Speaker C:Also, some of your listeners may be interested.
Speaker C:We have a free toolkit called the Church Mental Health Toolkit.
Speaker C:So if you go to spiritual first aid dot.
Speaker C:Excuse me.
Speaker C:Go to church mental health toolkit dot org you'll be able to find about 30 free resources.
Speaker C:Everything from burnout to how to recognize mental health stigma to, to practical ways of caring for others.
Speaker A:Wow, Good word.
Speaker A:Jamie, you pray for us today?
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:Dear God, thank you so much for all that you have done in our lives.
Speaker C:And I thank you for all those who are listening to the podcast today and just pray over them that you would equip them and that you would help open their eyes to those that are in need and to give them the courage to step into those hard places and to be a blessing unto others.
Speaker C:In Jesus Christ's name we pray.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:Amen.
