Matthew Knabe on Divine Assignments / Dick Foth on Back Channel with Foth
Matthew Knabe, who recounts his journey through the music industry and the transformative role of faith in his life, joins us on the podcast today. This discussion underscores the complexities of navigating transitions in life and ministry, emphasizing the importance of both personal reflection and community engagement as we move through various seasons of our life. As we delve into these themes, we invite listeners to consider their own paths and the legacies they wish to cultivate. On Back Channel with Foth, Dick Foth, articulates the notion that traditional retirement, often perceived as a cessation of work, may not be biblically substantiated, drawing upon scriptural references to the Levites and their designated service timelines. He further contemplates the implications of retiring from responsibilities while simultaneously advocating for continued contributions to one's community and the nurturing of emerging leaders.
:
- The concept of retirement is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible, particularly regarding the Levites, who served until the age of fifty before retiring from regular duties.
- As individuals transition through different life stages, their roles and contributions evolve, with the potential for meaningful engagement remaining regardless of age.
- The importance of self-care and reflection is emphasized, particularly for those in ministry, as they navigate their responsibilities and personal well-being.
- A balanced life encompasses work, rest, and leisure, which is essential for preventing burnout and maintaining overall health and productivity.
Transcript
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Speaker B:So excited to have our friend of the podcast, Dick Foth on another session of Back Channel with Folk.
Speaker C:And then we're going to jump into.
Speaker B:Our interview with Matthew Nab on his life story through the music industry and how God is using him today.
Speaker B:Dick, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker D:Thanks a million, Aaron.
Speaker D:I like that smiling face.
Speaker D:I can see you folks.
Speaker D:I can see this guy.
Speaker D:And you got a great smile.
Speaker B:Yes, it is.
Speaker B:Thank you for the kind words.
Speaker B:Thank you for the kind words.
Speaker B:And I am smiling today.
Speaker B:It's a good day in Springfield, Missouri.
Speaker B:So, Dick, got two questions basically around the subject missionary sent in about the subject of retirement.
Speaker C:The first one was retirement.
Speaker B:Often minister says it's not in the Bible, is it?
Speaker D:As far as I can see in thinking about this, it's one place.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker D:And it has to do with the Levites.
Speaker D:And you find in numbers the eighth chapter, 23rd through 26 verses when it's talking about the Levite service in the tabernacle.
Speaker D:Let me just read it real quick.
Speaker D:Lord said to Moses, this applies to the Levites.
Speaker D:Men 25 years old or more shall come to take part in the work at the tent of meeting.
Speaker D:So that's the starting place.
Speaker D:25 is baseline, apparently.
Speaker D:But at the age of 50, they must retire from the regular service and work no longer.
Speaker D:There's the ending date.
Speaker D:They may assist their brothers in performing their duties at the tent of meeting, but they themselves must not do the work.
Speaker D:I kind of like that I don't have to work.
Speaker D:I say, hey, move it over there.
Speaker D:What are you doing?
Speaker D:So this then is how you're to assign the.
Speaker D:This then is how you are to assign the responsibilities of the Levites.
Speaker D:Retirement is an interesting approach.
Speaker D:Looking back and you get to the industrial age and all of this, the idea of retirement I think came up specifically or more particularly out of line workers and people and plants, that sort of thing.
Speaker D:Usually people retire when they can't historically when they can't do whatever it is what they were they were doing, right?
Speaker D:Yeah, but it could be you say that, that Jesus retired.
Speaker D:Jesus saying now fellas, I'm going away, not going to be doing this anymore.
Speaker D:I'm going away.
Speaker D:So the Holy Spirit can come, right?
Speaker D:But.
Speaker D: erage lifespan was, you know,: Speaker D:Some lived older, some didn't.
Speaker D:But it sounds like in that Levite thing that the author God is saying 25 years is good.
Speaker D:Give others a chance to serve responsibly.
Speaker D:Non retirement.
Speaker D:Oftentimes for people because they're in the catbird seat, if I can use that phrase, or they're in power, often gets in the way of a generation.
Speaker D:I have watched people in all walks of life stay in place so long that the next generation of gifted leaders doesn't get a chance to be in that position.
Speaker D:And let me just, let me just elaborate on that because I'm, I'm on as, as I put it, I'm on my 84th trip around the sun.
Speaker D:Okay.
Speaker D:I'm 83 years old.
Speaker D:Never thought I'd be this old.
Speaker D:And I'm often asked, and I have been asked ever since I came to Colorado 17 years ago, what, what does it feel like to be retired?
Speaker D:And my answer is, I don't know.
Speaker D:I mean, I'm retired from one thing.
Speaker D:I'm retired from running something, whatever it was, or being engaged in that organization at that level or that mission.
Speaker D:I'm not retired from making a contribution.
Speaker D:I'm not retired painting a larger picture or bringing perspective about working with people or capitalizing on moments.
Speaker D:I'm not retired from generating income at some level and hopefully I'm adding value to people around me and, and the missions they lead.
Speaker D:So when you talk about retirement, it's retire.
Speaker D:That language is used for retiring from a particular task or, or position.
Speaker B:Yeah, good word, good word.
Speaker B:And my dad, you know, he retired from the railroad and another reason they retired people is when they become a lot, they became a liability.
Speaker B:So they were concerned they were going to get hurt and so they didn't want them.
Speaker B:As you said, that's a line work, union job.
Speaker B:But one, one other reason there.
Speaker B:So good, good deal on that one.
Speaker B:All right, so the second question the same person sent in was Arthur Brooks talks about moving from strength to strength in seasons of life.
Speaker B:What are some things you enjoyed in ministry when you are younger that you do not enjoy now and vice versa?
Speaker D:You know, that question really has made me think, okay, and I think what I enjoyed earlier when I was a 26 year old young church planter, I still enjoy.
Speaker D:I still enjoy casting vision with folks or dreaming dreams or teaching truth.
Speaker D:I enjoy the creativity and sharing the story of Jesus.
Speaker D:How do we share that in this context, in this day, or asking questions that might be information gathering or challenging.
Speaker D:What I didn't enjoy then, that is unending counseling or counseling that didn't seem to have an end, I became the surrogate, whatever.
Speaker D:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker D:And tedious budget preparation.
Speaker D:I didn't enjoy that now then, and I don't enjoy it.
Speaker A:Now.
Speaker D:But really it's a function of energy and focus.
Speaker D:In a lot of ways.
Speaker D:What I didn't enjoy institutionally, whether it was in church institutional work or university college institutional work, was the system that you work with, the guidelines that makes it stable, that gives rhythm to our lives, also ends up running us.
Speaker D:It's a little like having a cell phone.
Speaker D:It gives me access to stuff, but then all of a sudden it's running my life, buzzing all the time or however that works.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker D:So I'm forced now by less energy more than anything else to have Selah moments more often.
Speaker D:We're talking about, what do you enjoy now?
Speaker D:I enjoy reflection, pondering.
Speaker D:I love that word musing.
Speaker D:For example, when I'm not speaking every week to crowds, I now have time to go deeper with a few.
Speaker D:If I had it to do over again for the last 60 years, I would spend more time going deeper with a few because I think the reward is greater both ways.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:That's what I think.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker D:So, and just, just one other quick thought.
Speaker D:In, in days past, the position, the office, the title, the function was my platform.
Speaker D:And, and the physical platform, what we talk about is the platform in the congregation or a sanctuary was the go to place, the recognized and publicized thing.
Speaker D:Now the platforms for anybody are unseen and way more far reaching.
Speaker D:People say about this podcast, so what platforms are you on?
Speaker D:Are you on Facebook or Spotify or Twitter?
Speaker D:What is it?
Speaker D:And so cyberspace has become the platform.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow, wow, wow.
Speaker B:Well, Dick, thank you for the wisdom and insight on that.
Speaker B:And I, yeah, I, I look forward to the season where I can ponder and muse and, you know, and, but I'm not there yet.
Speaker B:One of these days I'm going to get there.
Speaker B:One of these days I'm going to get there.
Speaker D:You're going to love it.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, we're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Matt on life ministry and changes in season of seasons of life.
Speaker C:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker B:So here we go.
Speaker B:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker B:So excited to be here today with a new friend of the podcast, Matthew.
Speaker B:Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker C:Hey, bud.
Speaker C:Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker C:This is, it's great to see you so soon.
Speaker C:We were just together a couple weeks ago.
Speaker B:We were, and it was a great meeting.
Speaker B:And honestly, I did know you had me on the podcast.
Speaker B:I didn't know how it was going to go and I told my wife, I said that was like one of the funnest things I've done in a while.
Speaker B:So it was, it was a, it was a good thing and a joy.
Speaker B:A joy to spend some time with you.
Speaker B:For those who do not yet know you, could you share a little bit about yourself before I jump in and ask you a bunch of questions?
Speaker C:Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker C:So I'm based out of Northeast Ohio, but I was, I grew up here.
Speaker C:Spent a lot of my early adult life traveling the world.
Speaker C:Was based out of Nashville and part of my time in la.
Speaker C:I currently am the director of operations of a mental health ministry in Akron called Emerge.
Speaker C:And I've been here for getting close to a decade, which is.
Speaker C:Been great.
Speaker C:Spent a lot of my time as a mental health therapist.
Speaker C:I still do some clinical work, mostly with pastors and missionaries from around the world.
Speaker C:But most of my time is spent, you know, trying to run and operate this ministry and keep it going.
Speaker C:We've been around for 52 years.
Speaker C:I'm trying to figure out how to do it for another 52.
Speaker C:Not me, but make sure we've got a legacy of another 52.
Speaker C:So, yeah, I've got a wife and two little girls.
Speaker C:I married my high school sweetheart.
Speaker C:Our story is insane.
Speaker C:And I am by all effects an old dad.
Speaker C:I've got.
Speaker C:I've got a seven and a three year old.
Speaker C:And the Lord blessed us after years of, years of infertility, miscarriage and stuff with two little girls and definitely my world.
Speaker C:So yeah, there's a lot.
Speaker B:So let's begin.
Speaker B:Before I hit record, I was asking about the posters behind you.
Speaker B:So you mentioned you travel the world.
Speaker B:Love for music.
Speaker B:Share.
Speaker B:Where did that love for music begin?
Speaker B:And then I'm going to ask you some about your travels and some of the lessons you've learned along, along the way from that.
Speaker B:But where'd your love for music begin?
Speaker C:So my dad was a musician.
Speaker C:My dad was in an Elvis cover band in the 70s.
Speaker C:I was actually born the day Elvis died.
Speaker C:And so I don't know what was more emotional in my house or at least in the hospital.
Speaker C:Dad finding out the news that Elvis had passed or my birth.
Speaker C:But music was a pivotal part of us growing up.
Speaker C:My dad was always playing guitar.
Speaker C:We were always listening to music.
Speaker C:My parents became believers really when I was born and Christian music got influenced into our home.
Speaker C:But yeah, music was a big part of it.
Speaker C:But I didn't really gravitate to it because I was into sports.
Speaker C:I played football, baseball.
Speaker C:And then the Lord had a different plan.
Speaker C:My sophomore year of high school, I was in a basketball it was a preseason game, but the way I just played everything hard.
Speaker C:I dove into the bleachers after a ball came down on the bleachers and broke my back in three places and spent the next, yeah, spent the next, I don't know how several months in a body cast.
Speaker D:Wow.
Speaker C:And, and that changed the trajectory of, of my life because at that everything was sports and all of a sudden I'm sitting in this body cast and I couldn't do anything.
Speaker C:And we had these guitars around the house and so I just started to learn how to play and I, I spent almost that entire year probably playing almost eight hours a day every day.
Speaker C:And really quickly after I, I got mobile again.
Speaker C:Got involved with some guys in young life and we started a band and then one thing led to another and we were playing like local shows and then they got bigger and then we started playing regional shows and those got bigger.
Speaker C:And then we started, you know, traveling the state and I'm in high school.
Speaker C:Yeah, my parents are like crazy, you know.
Speaker C:And then I, I graduated high school, went to Kent State University and I say I enrolled in Kent State University, but I was on tour most of that and did not do well in school, but did well in music and was offered a, a management deal that after my freshman year, I think my parents were even like, you know what, I don't know if this school thing is.
Speaker C:So I moved to Nashville and did a management deal but then got connected.
Speaker C:I had known like Toby Mack, I got to know him pretty well and some people at Goatee Records and got connected with a band called Sonic Flood and became the guitar player in that band and toured with them for a couple years.
Speaker C:And that, that kind of just blew up.
Speaker C:I mean that, that first record we were doing, I don't know, 500 seaters.
Speaker C:And then that record came out and we were Sonic Flood.
Speaker C:And so I did the Christian music industry for a couple of years and that's a whole story I don't know if you want to get into.
Speaker C: s, early: Speaker C:You know, it was a very affluent time.
Speaker C:You know, when you think about the mid-90s, all of a sudden Christian music blew up.
Speaker C:I mean it just was, I mean you had Christian artists playing on, you know, secular radio.
Speaker C:They were getting, they were getting record deals in the secular world.
Speaker C:They were playing arenas and so it was a, it was a strange time.
Speaker C:So I ended up leaving the Christian music industry.
Speaker C:I feel like I probably got a little jaded by some of them.
Speaker B:And so how, how did that, you.
Speaker B:So just before you move on to the rest, how did that impact you?
Speaker B:How that, that, that time, you know, your, your, you've made a decision to move out of that.
Speaker B:You said it, it challenged your faith.
Speaker B:How did you move through that in that season?
Speaker C:Yeah, well, growing up in a Christian home, I was, I mean, we would, we were allowed to listen to Elvis.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Crosby, Stills and Ash and then like Amy Grant and you know, everything else like that was kind of like, you know, the Beatles.
Speaker C:Every once in a while we get it.
Speaker C:But I, I grew up with these posters of these Christian bands that now I'm touring.
Speaker C:Myth on My Wall.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And not that all of them weren't living, I guess, a faith based life, but a lot of them weren't.
Speaker C:And so at 19, I really struggled.
Speaker C:I learned a lesson later in life where my faith is not in people.
Speaker C:My faith is in those that I look up to.
Speaker C:My faith is in the Lord.
Speaker C:But at that time I struggled with that.
Speaker C:And you know, I.
Speaker C:Not to name drop, but I started playing shows with people like Kid Rock when I was 16, 17 years old.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I saw that side.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker C:And then at 19, I'm in the Christian industry, which I was working towards.
Speaker C:And I'm like, wait a minute, we're all doing the same thing that he's doing.
Speaker C:And I think it really kind of messed with my head a little bit as a young adult, you know, trying to find my way.
Speaker C:And, you know, I think I usually share my testimony is that of a prodigal.
Speaker C:You know, it's like a.
Speaker C:In the faith.
Speaker C:And then I went, I literally, literally went out in the world.
Speaker C:It was like, you know, by the time I was 25, I'm touring with the guys in Guns and Roses.
Speaker C:You know, it's like you don't get more than that.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, then I, then I spent, you know, the next several years in the, in the secular world.
Speaker C:Always still had a foundation of faith, but I don't know that it was actively living out the way that, that I, I know that I need it to be, if that makes sense.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so what are some lessons you learned in that, in that, in that season when you were in the secular world playing, playing music with, with those guys, and I assume ladies were involved in that too.
Speaker B:How did you how did you, you had some semblance of faith.
Speaker B:How did you not completely lose your faith in that season?
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm so thankful.
Speaker C:I think one, because I had people praying for me.
Speaker C:You know, I have an unbelievable family.
Speaker C:I'm so blessed.
Speaker C:And one of the differences I noticed with touring, especially in that world, even in the close knit part of, even my band, most people were coming from very broken foundations.
Speaker C:And I think that was a huge part.
Speaker C:You know, I've shared this many times before, but in my time in the music industry, I lost 13 friends to suicide and overdose, and that's a lot.
Speaker C:And there was a period of time where it's like you start getting afraid to answer the phone because you just like, what's this call going to be?
Speaker C:And I think one of the things I noticed is because of the foundation that I grew up with and I was surrounded by, I had some great guys that were mentors of mine that I had met through young life and church, and they were still in my life.
Speaker C:They were still praying for me, me, you know, even though I was really teetering on that line in the sand.
Speaker C:Yeah, I didn't go past it.
Speaker C:You know, it wasn't like.
Speaker C:And, and I had guys, I had buddies that I was touring with, they had no line.
Speaker C:There was, there was no semblance.
Speaker C:It was like, we're going to go as far as we can.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I pushed it.
Speaker C:I'm not going to sit here and say that, that, that wasn't the case.
Speaker C:But I always felt like there was this gravitational pull going, Matt.
Speaker C:You're, you're, you're crossing, you know, and I think I saw so many people cross over and it, it's, it's celebrated in the music industry.
Speaker C:You know, we used to joke that, you know, we're one of the only professions that people celebrate for, for being irresponsible, you know, and it's like every city we went to was that city's Saturday night.
Speaker C:So we were living that Saturday night on a Tuesday, on a Wednesday, on a Thursday.
Speaker C:And you know, eventually that catches up with you and you know, so I did it for over a decade.
Speaker C:You know, we were doing.
Speaker C:If we weren't doing a record that year, we were doing 240, 250 shows.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:That year.
Speaker C:So we, I mean, we lived, we lived it, you know, and I love that part of my life.
Speaker C:It informed me for who I am today.
Speaker C:I got to experience culture, I got to experience, you know, different types of people.
Speaker C:It was, it was a, it was a College that you just can't get anywhere, you know, and, you know, I think God was also utilizing that to set me up for, you know, my.
Speaker C:My second career down the road in mental health.
Speaker C: w, mental health in the early: Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker C:But it was all around me, like, it was very evident.
Speaker C:And I don't mean to be jumping ahead, but I was about 30 years old, and we were touring with bands, like I had mentioned, and those guys were all, you know, a lot of the guys we were touring with about 10, 15 years in front of me.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:And I just kept looking going, is that.
Speaker C:Is that where I want to end up?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:I'm like, in my early 30s, not married, want to have kids, and I'm looking, and I'm not trying to be judgmental towards anybody, but a lot of guys, you know, had multiple marriages, had no connection with their children.
Speaker C:For two hours a night, they were celebrated like rock stars.
Speaker C:And then for 22 hours, it was this dysfunctional life.
Speaker C:And I'm like, what do you know?
Speaker C:I've played on the biggest stages.
Speaker C:I've bought my.
Speaker C:You know, this was a big deal back then because people are like, what do you mean?
Speaker C:We used to walk into Target and Walmart and buy our record.
Speaker C:You know, that was such a big deal.
Speaker C:Nobody buys records anymore.
Speaker C:You can download them, but, you know, got to play with some of the biggest bands in the world, got to sign a major record label, got to turn on MTV and see our video on there.
Speaker C:It's like.
Speaker C:And when I. I started going through the checklist, and I'm like, I think.
Speaker C:I think I did it.
Speaker C:Like, I think I've done it.
Speaker C:And I don't know if I continue going any further, it's going to be good for me.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:But that's where I.
Speaker C:That.
Speaker C:That was the cross in the road.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The why in the road that I. I realized I was going to have to make some.
Speaker C:I'd been touring since I was almost 15 years old, and now I'm early 30s.
Speaker C:And it was like, I don't really have a skill.
Speaker C:Like, I don't have.
Speaker C:My resume looks ridiculous.
Speaker B:Well, it's.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker B:It's probably one that many would covet, but at the same time, it's as far as.
Speaker C:Not if you're trying to get a job.
Speaker B:Well, ma', am, not that well, you could get a job in the music industry, just not necessarily a job outside of it.
Speaker B:So one last question before we move on to that.
Speaker B:Oh, sorry.
Speaker B:I interrupted you, bud.
Speaker C:No, I was just going to say that was the thing, though.
Speaker C:I knew I had to leave the music industry.
Speaker C:Like, I probably could have got a job in the music industry.
Speaker C:But the thing is, you can't.
Speaker C:You can't stay around it.
Speaker C: Like, it was: Speaker C:I felt like the Lord was starting to call me out, but it took me two years to really hear it because I kept my foot in.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And when you keep your foot in, it's like it just, it eventually pulls you back in, you know, and it's like when I've worked with people who suffer from, like, addiction, things, you probably.
Speaker C:You can't go to the bar.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You just can't do it anymore.
Speaker C:You have to change your environment.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I, I fought that kicking and screaming for sure.
Speaker C:You know, so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So the question I want to ask for, we will move on to your professional career in counseling.
Speaker B:So if there's a parent listening into this and they're, they're, they're.
Speaker B:Their child is in the season of life like yours that you were in when you were traveling the world and you said you were pushing that line, Any wisdom for them on things to how to love and care for their kids in that season.
Speaker B:Any words of encouragement for them?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, I think there's so much front end work that is important, like our job as parents.
Speaker C:And I just mentioned I'm a, you know, a parent of two young kids is really equipping them and allowing them to be prepared so that when they do go out into the world.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:They're, they're.
Speaker C:Then they have the abilities and the skills and the understanding and the wherewithal.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:They're probably going to make mistakes, though.
Speaker C:Like, one of the greatest things.
Speaker C:My parents didn't keep me from going on tour.
Speaker C:I don't know, they weren't thrilled about it.
Speaker C:They.
Speaker C:They knew what that was going to look like.
Speaker C:And I share this.
Speaker C:One of the greatest moments in my life was I had just turned 19.
Speaker C:You know, it was the day after I was 19 and we'd moved to Nashville.
Speaker C:Me and my drummer moved to Nashville and we were moved in on a Friday.
Speaker C:It was Sunday.
Speaker C:My wife was there.
Speaker C:We were dating at the time.
Speaker C:And my mom and my dad and I saw my dad walking away from the apartment door towards the pool, which was, you know, facing the other direction.
Speaker C:I could tell he was crying.
Speaker C:And he turned around with no tears in his ears.
Speaker C:And he came up and he walked to me.
Speaker C:He goes Your mother and I did everything we had to do for you to be able to move into this world and make the decisions that we've equipped you with.
Speaker C:And he goes, I'm not going to own what you do now.
Speaker C:This is going to be on you.
Speaker C:And I'll never forget that moment.
Speaker C:But he was right.
Speaker C:He did.
Speaker C:And, and I do think that was the safety net that really kept me, you know, because so many of my friends had, had died or fallen into deep addiction issues or, you know, you name it.
Speaker C:I mean it was all that was, it was all, all the movies you've watched, it was like that.
Speaker C:And I'm just so thankful because I, I did have that foundational faith and I had a relationship with God.
Speaker C:But I think, you know, a lot of times until we get into adulthood, I don't know that our faith really turns into our faith when we grow up in a Christian home.
Speaker C:Like I was living out my parents faith at 14, 15, 16, because I didn't really understand that.
Speaker C:But it was in my mid, late 20s that I really started going, wait a minute, I think, I think I need to figure this out.
Speaker C:Yeah, my relationship with him on my own.
Speaker C:And that was one of the best things that could have happened.
Speaker C: that's really what I knew in: Speaker C:Like I can't believe I'm going to move back to Ohio.
Speaker C:But I had developed a massive anxiety issue and was dealing with panic and anxiety and dealt with a brief period of agoraphobia and I was not functioning.
Speaker C:And it was because I knew I couldn't keep doing what I was doing, but I didn't know what to do.
Speaker C:And a lot of times anxiety is a alarm system and it's letting us know we're not okay, we're not safe.
Speaker C:And it's a good thing, God gave us that.
Speaker C:But sometimes it can get so overwhelming that it becomes beyond that and it's, it becomes a clinical thing and that's what I had to deal with.
Speaker C: And so I came home in: Speaker C:And the funny ironic thing is one of my biggest songs in my main band was called Full Circle.
Speaker C:And one of the most full circle moments in my life is I am now the director of operations in the very office I was a client in.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:15 years ago.
Speaker C:I look at my couch which I'm staring at right now, it was a different couch then.
Speaker C:But I look at that just thinking, what a broken young man was sitting there 15 years ago who had no idea what the future was going to look like.
Speaker C:And then on the very last day of therapy, we had worked through the anxiety stuff.
Speaker C:It was almost exactly a year.
Speaker C:My therapist asked me, what are you going to do now?
Speaker C:I said, I have no idea.
Speaker C:And in that moment he goes, I think you need to do what I do.
Speaker C:And like this light went off.
Speaker C:It was like, yes, like my, my whole heart for music was building a bridge to an audience who felt disconnected, who felt like outcasts.
Speaker C:Like that was our, that was our group.
Speaker C:People who didn't feel like they were connected.
Speaker C:And I was like, therapy, I'm, you're doing the same thing.
Speaker C:I'm just not singing at them, you know.
Speaker C:But it's, it's kind of the same, same principle.
Speaker C:So when people are like, man, how'd you get from the music industry into therapy?
Speaker C:And I'm like, I'm actually doing the same thing.
Speaker C:I have a heart for those who don't feel like they belong.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And a lot of therapy is that it's, it's a disconnect with community, you know, so.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:Anyway, there was my long winded.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:How, how did God meet you in that season when you, you ended up, you said you came to emerge and you were struggling with anxiety.
Speaker B:How did God, how did God meet you in, in that season?
Speaker B:Maybe somebody's listening in and they're, they're in a season where they're.
Speaker B:I, I, I share often on Psalm 77, sleepless nights.
Speaker B:You know, sometimes when you're in the, in his asop, he's walking through like he's, he can't see, he can't see tomorrow.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:He's so stuck in today and he can, and all he can think about is the present and he's not able to see tomorrow.
Speaker B:Now in the psalms, obviously he shifts his mindset, but how for somebody today that they're just seeing that they're struggling with anxiety, they're struggling and they're not able to necessarily see tomorrow.
Speaker B:Any words of encouragement for them?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think there's always encouragement.
Speaker C:And I think, I mean to be completely raw and real.
Speaker C:I had an emotional release and breakdown and I'll never forget the moment.
Speaker C:It was after a therapy session.
Speaker C:At that point I was living back at my parents house, trying to get back on my feet and figure life out.
Speaker C:I was on the bathroom floor And I just let it go.
Speaker C:And I released.
Speaker C:Years and years of trying to control and hold on to.
Speaker C:You know, I was the lead singer in my main band.
Speaker C:I felt like the world was on my shoulders and I just.
Speaker C:I let go.
Speaker C:I repented of years and years of really kind of pushing God out of my life and saying, hey, I got this.
Speaker C:Like, appreciate all you've done for me, but.
Speaker C:But I'm good.
Speaker C:And I just had a.
Speaker C:An emotional release of, of pain, of fear.
Speaker C:And it's just like, I got to the point where I just realized I can't do this on my own.
Speaker C:And that was so freeing.
Speaker C:And I just kind of opened up to allow him to kind of come back into my life.
Speaker C:Not that he left me, and I don't think that he did, but I think I had some wounds, I had some fractures that were keeping him from getting into the spaces that I believe that he wanted to inhabit.
Speaker C:And I kept him kind of going, look, no, I mean, you can have this part, but maybe not this part.
Speaker C:And I think sometimes we just kind of have to get down to the.
Speaker C:The bare bones of it.
Speaker C:And, you know, everybody's got a proverbial rock bottom.
Speaker C:And I don't want people to hit rock bottom, but sometimes you have to.
Speaker C:You know, the beginning part of James, I. I use this book all the time, especially in therapy, because I call it the Proverbs of the New Testament.
Speaker C:Because it's just like nugget after nugget after nugget after nugget.
Speaker C:And essentially the first chapter in James is saying, if you didn't need saved, why would he send a savior?
Speaker C:I needed saved.
Speaker C:And I think in that moment we say that, but we don't realize the impact that that means.
Speaker C:Like, I needed saved 20 years before that, but it took me, you know, almost 15 plus years, you know, on the road and touring to realize, oh, my gosh, I need saved.
Speaker C:Like, I know God, but I need saved.
Speaker C:Like, I am not going to make it.
Speaker C:And, man, I'll tell you, it was.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:That was.
Speaker C:You know, I'd just been home for about a year, and after that moment, I don't know, it was probably three weeks later, it was Easter, and I got baptized.
Speaker C:And it was something that I had pushed off.
Speaker C:I knew I needed to get baptized at 15.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I just kept pushing off, going, I'll get there, I'll get there.
Speaker C:And then it hit me, like.
Speaker C:And, you know, my wedding day was amazing.
Speaker C:The day my children were born were amazing, dude.
Speaker C:The day I was baptized was unbelievable.
Speaker C:It was incredible.
Speaker C:Such an incredible day.
Speaker C:I won't go into the whole story of it, but it was, it was just one of those days where I'm like, man, I think the Lord is jumping for joy because, you know, he's just one.
Speaker C:It was a prodigal moment.
Speaker C:It's like he just was waiting for, you know, And I, I always say it's like the, the, the.
Speaker C:The father waits on the porch for the prodigal to come back.
Speaker C:Finally.
Speaker C:Did, you know?
Speaker C:So, yeah.
Speaker B:So taking the, you, the therapist gives you the, the counsel or the advice, hey, I think you'd be good at doing what I'm doing.
Speaker B:That's an idea.
Speaker B:But then to, to put that idea into action, that, that takes, that takes a lot of work and a lot of, a lot of idea.
Speaker B:I think the reason that'll resonate with the audience.
Speaker B:There's a lot of people that are listening into this.
Speaker B:Maybe they were a professional somewhere, but they've ended up on the mission field and they've walked that tension point and they've went through a transition.
Speaker B:And sometimes transitions are not so easy.
Speaker B:Right, because you were very, you were, you were, you were in a successful career, you were well known and you, you know, I mean, you were traveling the world and then you make a transition.
Speaker B:And my assumption is you had to go back to school, you had to become a student again.
Speaker C:They don't let you just do this off the street.
Speaker C:So just.
Speaker B:So just how did, how did you walk through that transition?
Speaker B:Because that's a big transition from the music world to what you're doing now.
Speaker B:But the other thing is, is you did it.
Speaker B:And so there's a lot of times that we feel like, hey, we're going to do something, and people don't follow through with it.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Any thoughts on that?
Speaker C:Yeah, it's hard.
Speaker C:You know, at that point I realized my journey.
Speaker C:I had mentioned you.
Speaker C:When I went to Kent State, I didn't do well.
Speaker C:I think I had a 1 4.
Speaker C:I mean, I barely went last.
Speaker C:So school, I did well in high school, but like school was not something.
Speaker C:But you know, you can't get into clinical counseling and mental health without a degree, apparently.
Speaker C:So at the time, my.
Speaker C:And still to this day, my self care is golf and I'm golfing a ton.
Speaker C:I was golfing every day.
Speaker C:That was kind of my.
Speaker C:And so I was like, well, I need to get a job while I go to school.
Speaker C:So I enrolled in school because I had to finish my undergrad.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:So I Walked into a Nike store, and I. I had my resume, toured with Creed, toured with.
Speaker C:And I'll never forget, I'm dear friends with the guy that I worked under.
Speaker C:And I turned in, and he was like, I don't know who this guy is.
Speaker C:This resume I can't hire, but we're going to hire him.
Speaker C:So I was enrolled in undergrad.
Speaker C:That took me a couple years.
Speaker C:And then I enrolled in a master's program.
Speaker C:And I got to be honest, dude, I was scared to death.
Speaker C:I was like, I'm in my early 30s.
Speaker C:I'm in class with people who just graduated.
Speaker C:They're 24, 25 years old, writing papers.
Speaker C:The first week, I think I had a panic attack.
Speaker C:But there was a moment God gave me clarity on my first exam.
Speaker C:It was the first week of school of my master's program.
Speaker C:My eyes started going blurry, and I started going, what am I doing?
Speaker C:I can't do this.
Speaker C:And God gave me this.
Speaker C:It was almost an audible voice where he said, matt, thousands of people have done this program, so can you.
Speaker C:And it just calmed everything.
Speaker C:And all of a sudden, I took.
Speaker C:And I love academia.
Speaker C:I've been working on going back to get my doctorate, and it's like, I just.
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker C:I love it.
Speaker C:So I spent seven years at Nike while I was getting my degree and ended up working into a director of operations role at Nike, which was an unbelievable training ground.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:It's probably one of the biggest companies in the world.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker C:But I never thought I would ever use that skill again, because I'm going into counseling.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker C:And I knew when I graduated, I wanted to work at Emerge.
Speaker C:And so I wore them out for almost seven years.
Speaker C:I would email them.
Speaker C:I was tweeting at the president at the time.
Speaker C:I would Facebook them.
Speaker C:And I think when I graduated, they're like, somebody please give this guy an interview.
Speaker C:Because, like, I want this.
Speaker C:And so they ended up hiring me.
Speaker C:I ended up leaving Nike, which was a great experience.
Speaker C:I still have great friends there.
Speaker C:I loved it.
Speaker C:It just wasn't where my heart was at for what I wanted, but it was a great interim training ground.
Speaker C:And then I came here and worked here and did about five years of very intense clinical work.
Speaker C:And then a couple years ago, our president came to me and said, hey, you know that time you spent at Nike, do you think you could bring some of those skills here?
Speaker C:And I'm like, man, the Lord cracks me up because he's using all of it.
Speaker C:He's using.
Speaker B:So you mentioned Golf was your self care at the time.
Speaker C:Any.
Speaker B:Any.
Speaker B:You know, one of the challenges for, For.
Speaker B:For missionaries can be is self care.
Speaker B:You know, we do walk the tension.
Speaker B:I say sometimes we.
Speaker B:We have a generation that has a theology of work, and we have another generation has a theology arrest.
Speaker B:And so we're trying to balance that tension.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Any words of encouragement on how what missionaries can do, Some basic things they can do maybe to recognize burnout or some things they can do for self care, maybe to.
Speaker A:To.
Speaker B:To not burn out.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I think this is one of the most important things that we have to think about as human beings, because I speak on this a lot, and I do travel and talk to different ministries and organizations, and one of the things I remind them, and people will ask me, it's like, dude, where.
Speaker C:Where in the Bible can you find this balance of rest and work and whatever?
Speaker C:I'm like, page one.
Speaker C:Just.
Speaker C:You open page one.
Speaker C:God creates and then he rests.
Speaker C:God create.
Speaker C:He gives us a work week.
Speaker C:You know, he it right from the beginning.
Speaker C:He gives us a template of how to do this thing.
Speaker C:And we've messed it up time and time and generation and generation.
Speaker C:But if you think about life, it's pretty simple.
Speaker C:You think about it in thirds.
Speaker C:Every day is a third.
Speaker C:You sleep for a third, you work for a third, and then you enjoy the third.
Speaker C:It's a very, you know, if you look at it in groups of eight, it's a we all.
Speaker C:One of the greatest equalizers of mankind is time.
Speaker C:You don't have any more time than I have.
Speaker C:Nobody has any more time.
Speaker C:Some people have more money than I do.
Speaker C:They have more resources.
Speaker C:But our equalizer is time.
Speaker C:I love the concept that scripture from Genesis to Revelation is certainly a book of love for sure, but it's a book of balance.
Speaker C:It's a book of discipline.
Speaker C:And if you can't balance those areas of your life, you will fall into burnout.
Speaker C:We were not created to go, go, go, go, go.
Speaker C:And I think one of the issues that.
Speaker C:And I, you know, in my position, Nike, and my position now, I do a lot of interviews and, you know, Nike, I was hiring for new employees here.
Speaker C:I'm hiring for new clinicians and new admin staff.
Speaker C:And I'll always ask people, you know, what are some of your gifts?
Speaker C:You know, what are your strengths?
Speaker C:What are your opportunities?
Speaker C:And people will say things like, well, I'm a multitasker.
Speaker C:I'm a workaholic.
Speaker C:I'm da, da, da.
Speaker C:And I'm sitting here going, dude, that's not a good thing.
Speaker C:If you happen to holic at the end of something, it's not, it's not a good thing.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:But I think in our culture we celebrate that.
Speaker C:We celebrate people who go, oh man, I work 80 to 90 hours a week.
Speaker C:Well, you don't know how to balance your life.
Speaker C:Something is being sacrificed that probably is important if you're doing that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'd rather find people who can find balance.
Speaker C:You know, I always tell people, and we're seeing this in culture and I don't mean to move this conversation, but like you can see this throughout generations is like when our culture moves in one direction, all of a sudden we just swing the pendulum in the other direction.
Speaker C:We don't balance it out.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker C:We over correct.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so if somebody's listening, it's like, we weren't created to not rest.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:But we were also not created to not work.
Speaker C:You know, a lot of the times I work with people who are dealing with depression, they're not, they're not pushing them themselves, they're not being active, they're not finding fulfillment in their work, in their life.
Speaker C:People who have anxiety often are burning at both ends.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:You know, and it's bringing that balance back.
Speaker C:You know, I'm, I'm, I'm allowed to say this because I'm a mental health therapist.
Speaker C:I'm a psycho for sleep.
Speaker C:Like I will get my eight hours.
Speaker C:And I know that's crazy.
Speaker C:Now it's different when we had.
Speaker C:Our kids are getting a little bit older, so we're getting back into our routine when they were real little.
Speaker C:You throw it out the window.
Speaker C:It's just like it is what it is, but your body.
Speaker C:And this is something I share with my kids and my 7 year old.
Speaker C:It's like your body grows and repairs when you sleep and if you don't allow it to do that, you're going to have issue, you know.
Speaker C:And so my, my, my 7 year old, she gets encouraged and she gets excited to go to sleep because she knows she's going to grow.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:And she, she wants to be a big girl, she wants to be a teenager and whatever.
Speaker C:And so it's a motivation.
Speaker C:But I know that, you know, our minds repair itself.
Speaker C:You know, it's unbelievable, the neuroplasty that God gives us, neuroplasticity that God gives us to allow our brains to heal and rewire.
Speaker C:But it does that in rest, not when you're using it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:And so, you know, I, I A lot of times I'm sure you've heard this too, Aaron.
Speaker C:It's like, you know, people will be like, you know, they're proud about the fact that I get four to five hours of sleep a night.
Speaker C:Well, you're actually shooting yourself in the foot.
Speaker C:You know, you're actually not helping yourself.
Speaker C:You know, we, we for most adults, if you can get seven, eight hours, you know.
Speaker C:A couple years ago a neuropsychologist came here and I'm a huge fan of his.
Speaker C:I, I've, I, I've followed him.
Speaker C:I was like a, you know, 13 year old girl at a Britney Spears concert when he came to speak and I was in the front row, I had a notebook.
Speaker C:I'm ready to take all these notes on all this new neuroscience and all these things.
Speaker C:He spent an almost out of the hour presentation.
Speaker C:He spent 45 hours on sleep.
Speaker C:Wow, sorry.
Speaker C:45 minutes of his hour presentation on sleep.
Speaker C:It was like, oh, this must be very important now.
Speaker C:A big chunk of the next part was on what you eat.
Speaker C:And then the last like 10 minutes he threw in all these crazy things that we've learned about the brain and all these studies and all this stuff.
Speaker C:But it just kind of hit me like there's so much that we can be doing this pretty simple like with my clients, especially like when I do a thing called intensives here.
Speaker C:That's soul care.
Speaker C:Intensives are where pastors, missionaries, they come here for three or four days and we do intensive work that first day.
Speaker C:We do a ton of assessments.
Speaker C:I'm trying to find out what do you eat, are you eating food?
Speaker C:Like a lot of people aren't even eating food.
Speaker C:It's one minute away from being in the oven, from being one of my kids toys than being food.
Speaker C:You know, we look at sleep regimen, you know, what is your, what is your sleep hygiene?
Speaker C:You know, what are your spiritual practices?
Speaker C:Are you practicing a Sabbath?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, it's shocking to me how many past years are leading massive churches and don't practice Sabbath.
Speaker C:It's like, dude, like you're missing the boat, you know, so those are, those are several things.
Speaker C:I think self care, I think self care.
Speaker C:We use the term soul care.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:You know, it's like self care is, is, is one layer to that.
Speaker C:But how am I taking care of my soul?
Speaker C:You know, what am I investing in that?
Speaker C:And I think, you know, if you're taking care, if you have healthy relationships in your life, that's massively important.
Speaker C:We were created to be in relationship with Others.
Speaker C:And I think the other thing that I always have someone who's that North Star, like, God's always put that Paul in my life.
Speaker C:You know, there's always been that guy that's 5, 10, 15 years in front of me that I go, that's what life's supposed to look like.
Speaker C:And we mirror that.
Speaker C:You know, one of the things we, you know, we talk about in psychology all the time.
Speaker C:You know, we've got these mirror neurons in our brain.
Speaker C:And you can see this in infants.
Speaker C:The first way you really start to learn is by mirroring the people are around you.
Speaker C:And you know this.
Speaker C:It's like, you will look like the people you hang out with.
Speaker C:You will end up looking like them.
Speaker C:And I. I love when people come to me, they're like, you know, I'm.
Speaker C:I'm doing God's work.
Speaker C:I'm.
Speaker C:I'm hanging out in the bars, and I'm.
Speaker C:I'm going to these places and hanging out at parties, and I'm like, listen, Jesus's ministry was hanging out in those places, but his social circle was not very, very different thing.
Speaker C:You will look like.
Speaker C:You will end up looking like who you hang out with.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker B:Such a good word.
Speaker B:So you're.
Speaker B:You're a great podcast host.
Speaker B:Any questions?
Speaker B:I should have asked you before I asked you to pray for us.
Speaker C:You know what?
Speaker C:I've been doing our podcast for, like, six years, and I obviously spent most of my life being interviewed like this and then being.
Speaker C:Having that switched on me.
Speaker C:I've enjoyed being on the.
Speaker C:Being on your side.
Speaker C:And I think one of the questions I've enjoyed asking people to see is, what decisions are you making today that you're willing to live with over the next 20 years?
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:You know, because the thing is, is when you think about it, you are a product of the decisions you're making today.
Speaker C:That's the life you will be living.
Speaker C:And I think it causes people to pause and think and go.
Speaker C:We oftentimes get so caught in the moment that you don't realize that there's a compound effect to all the decisions you make.
Speaker C:And so over the last several years, I feel like I've really thought about that question.
Speaker C:I'm in my mid-40s.
Speaker C:What do I want to be living, like, in my mid-60s?
Speaker C:Because the decisions I'm making today will inform how I'm living then.
Speaker C:So, yeah, there's my question.
Speaker B:That's good, man.
Speaker B:And I might use it in my future interviews.
Speaker A:How about that?
Speaker B:So will you pray for us?
Speaker B:Today, it's been fun.
Speaker B:It's been fun and really enjoyed it.
Speaker B:And you, you changed the case for counselors and therapists.
Speaker B:Normally when I interview somebody's in counseling or therapist, they're not used to talking.
Speaker B:So I have to have like 56 questions because I get like a four word answer and because then they're, they're used to the other person talking.
Speaker C:But you've, you know what, it's been fun, hilarious, because clinicians are trained to always be 37, you know, yeah, it's a 30, 70 rule.
Speaker C:You want to be on the 30% of the communication where the client's on the 70.
Speaker B:But, well, for a podcast host, man, it makes it challenging because you got to have a lot more questions.
Speaker B:Will you pray for us?
Speaker C:Absolutely, I would love to, Father.
Speaker C:God, I just thank you for this morning.
Speaker C:I thank you for the opportunity for us to have this conversation.
Speaker C:Lord, I thank you for our lives and the fact that you allow us to go through different adversities because it is through our stories and through our life experiences that we're able to share the kingdom and what you've done for us.
Speaker C:And Father, as I prayed many times, I have no idea who's listening to these podcasts.
Speaker C:And Lord, I pray that you would open the hearts of those who are.
Speaker C:And if somebody is needing to hear this conversation or any of the other podcasts that Aaron does, Lord, I just pray for this platform that is able to spread and your word is able to seep into those people's lives.
Speaker C:Lord, I pray for anybody that's feeling like they're on an island.
Speaker C:And Father, through these conversations, they're not alone.
Speaker C:And Father, we, all of us are broken, all of us are wounded, and we all need you.
Speaker C:And as I said before, Father, you brought a savior because we need saved.
Speaker C:And I thank you for that because that certainly was the case for me.
Speaker C:And so, Lord, thank you for allowing me to share my story today.
Speaker C:Thank you for this time that Aaron and I got to meet a couple weeks ago in Orlando and what a great connection that was.
Speaker C:And I thank you for that friendship.
Speaker C:And Lord, we just thank you for what you're doing.
Speaker C:We just continue to pray for, for your glory on this earth.
Speaker C:And Lord, we love you.
Speaker C:We thank you.
Speaker C:We pray this in Jesus name, Amen.
Speaker A:Amen.
