Joseph Gordon on Navigating Spiritual Warfare in Pioneering Work

Joseph Gordon: 00:00:06

Hey there.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:00:06

Welcome back to the Clarity podcast. This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission. And my name is Aaron Sanemyer and I get to be your host.

Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast Joseph Gordon. This is part of a series that I wanted to do looking at pioneering missions. You know, missions is changing.

What we do as global workers, as missionaries is changing.

And Joseph, we get to sit down and learn from him about what pioneering is, his experiences in pioneering in missions, the lessons he's learned over time get to look about, you know, is everyone called the pioneer are the unique giftings and talents for that we he shares A little bit later on the podcast we talk about he shares about First Timothy when he looked at what it means to be a disciple maker and what we should be investing in. Sometimes we get so much so focused on the abilities but we forget or we less focus on character and relationships.

And he looks at First Timothy and highlights that for us.

That's a takeaway home takeaway point from this, from this podcast and really appreciated him sharing that we talk about spiritual warfare and being a pioneer, what that looks like, maybe some things that he wish that he would have known about living in a family or living solo in a pioneering work. So the joys and challenges of that. Just really appreciated having Joseph on the podcast. Learn from him and I think you'll learn from him too.

It was fun. It was a great interview. Do want to ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.

I know the podcast I subscribe to are the ones I listen into and know they're going to show up on my feed on Monday or Tuesday and know what I'll be listening to throughout the week. Do want to also let you know once again my book A Caring Family is out. It was launched in December.

It's a book that I wish that I would have read 20 years ago when my kids were still young or not even born yet. So I've been better prepared as a father to focus on virtues rather than getting caught up in some of the things of the day.

And Arthur Brooks shares that we can choose to be loved and known or we can choose to be unique and special. And you know, I chased some degrees and got some degrees and did some things.

And as I share Chick Fil A still charges me the same amount for my grilled chicken salad with creamy salsa dressing whether I have a bunch of degrees or not. But it's just a clarion call for us to get back and Focus on being a caring family.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started, so here we go.

Joseph Gordon: 00:02:33

Go.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:02:42

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast. So excited to have a new friend of the podcast with us, Joseph Gordon. Joseph, welcome to the podcast.

Joseph Gordon: 00:02:49

Great to be with you today, Joseph.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:02:52

I got, we got to spend a little bit of time together this past weekend in Florida. But for those who didn't get to hear you speak and have don't know you yet, will you share a little bit about yourself?

Joseph Gordon: 00:03:01

Yeah. So born and raised In Georgia when 20 years old, I was an alcoholic. I had just been through a lot of stuff as a teenager.

My parents divorced and my mother left and my father left. And just being alone and looking for answers without hope, I turned to alcohol and drugs.

Really didn't know anybody who knew Jesus didn't know that direction.

And then when I was 20 years old, I just started having these encounters and incidences that started pushing me towards Christ and went to a church and went down to the altar, gave my life to the Lord and just everything changed. It was years of the process of refining, but mentally, emotionally, spiritually, just everything changed. And I started on that journey with Christ.

And then a few months after that, my pastor told me he felt I had a call on my life. And so he put me in a church van and took me to Southeastern College. And in Southeastern I just had incredible encounters with missionaries.

There were some retired missionaries to India that really impacted my life. I was talking with a friend the other day, our four mission emphasis week.

We had David Grant, we had Ron Maddox, we had Charles Greenaway, and then we had a missionary from Europe. And it was just, you know, everywhere I turned it was God nudging me towards his mission.

ave been doing this now since: 1991

Aaron Santmyire: 00:04:49

Wow, Joseph, how did the just to reverse a little bit you shared about your pastor that believed in you and felt you had a on your life.

How did that impact you and how does that impact your life and ministry today when you interact with others, that that recognition of a call of God on somebody's life is so vital and I think, you know, there's is the situ where we're at today. So how does that impact you and how did it impact you and how does that impact your life today when you interact with others?

Joseph Gordon: 00:05:21

Yeah, I feel very blessed that I was saved in a time of small time Church.

You know, sometimes we look down on the small church, but I was saved in a church where immediately my pastor noticed me, because I don't know that anybody had been saved in a long time. And so he noticed me and he gave me attention. And every time I came to the altar, he would come and kneel beside me and pray.

You know, I was saved during a time where Sunday night services would go for three and four hours, and. And I was usually the focus of my church's prayers because everybody else had been saved forever.

And so, you know, and I had a lot of just godly people who really poured into my life, and they noticed me and they gave attention to me, and they were the kind of people that on Friday nights, they would call me because they knew, hey, this is when you used to start getting in trouble. So, hey, can we. You want to do something tonight? You want to come over? You want to go pray at the church?

And so I just had godly people who were part of my life. And I do mourn, you know, not for a loss of things like Sunday night service, but I.

But I mourn for a loss of attention, you know, that we just don't notice one another as much anymore. And from there, I went to a church with a youth pastor.

I wasn't really a youth, but he took me under his wing and just really nurtured me, gave me opportunities to speak and, you know, started encouraging me. And so when I went to Bible school also, I just had great mentors. I had professors who just really poured into my life and really spoke into it.

And then going into missions, David Grant, who some might know, you know, in the mission world might know, you know, just took me under his wing and mentored me. Andrew McCabe was my missionary mentor.

He was born and raised in India, and just an incredible godly man who taught me to love India and love, love people. And so all of that has become, you know, like, who are the. You know, who are the young people in my life?

Who are the young people in my life that I'm trying to mentor and encourage? And so, so we're constantly looking for who are people that want to grow in Christ and want to grow in mission and let's do this together.

So, yeah, it's definitely deeply. I've been deeply impacted by the people in my life, not only in how it changed me, but then also then in my reflection of how I try to minister.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:07:59

Wow. And an encouragement for all of us. I think of the busyness of the world we live in.

Today, not, as you said, noticing others and being willing to invest in, encourage, and believe. You know, I say frequently, if you have Jesus and you have people that believe in you, you can do a lot of things. You can do a lot of things.

And you shared that a little bit of that story this past weekend, and it really resonated with me. You know, who. Who are the people in my life? Who am I noticing? Who am I sharing belief with? And the importance of people have done that for me and my.

My opportunity to do that for others. Do that for others. Joseph, we're going to talk a little bit today about pioneering. So what does pioneering missions look like to you, basically?

What is it? What is pioneering. Pioneering missions to you?

Joseph Gordon: 00:08:47

Yeah, I felt like a dinosaur sometime, but I survived the Ice Age, so that's.

I originally, when I went into missions, I went into missions under an older era where it was expected that we stay away from each other as missionaries because there's so much work to do. We can't be in the same place because there's too many places that need Jesus.

So I got to the field at the same time as a number of other couples, and they made sure we were as far away from each other as possible because there's so much work to be done, and we got to get the work done. So I went to missions under an era where you scatter out. And then also during that era in India, it was much more liberal, open, free.

So when I landed in India, I would tell everybody I was a missionary, I'm a pastor, I preach. And everybody's like, oh, great, great to have you. And, you know, so. So my ministry was I would go out to villages and I would preach in villages.

We would do massive, you know, track distributions, you know, throughout areas. And then we would set up little mini crusades and do crusades.

And then we would rent a building and go in and start preaching and, you know, invite people to start coming. And so it was a very traditional error.

And from there doing that in the cities, I moved up to the hills, and in the hills, then it was, you walk for a day and get to a village and you preach in the village, and then you walk to the next village and you preach in that village. And then if they're interested, you come back and show the Jesus film.

And if they're interested in that, you come back with one of the Bible school students and help them start a church. And so I lived through that era of pioneering and now have now, you know, went through that the desert Of.

Of the closing of societies where traditional Missions isn't possible everywhere. So then I went to Laos. I moved to Laos was where it started, which is closed Communist.

And when I moved to Laos, it was actually on the website that it said on the website, Christianity is the number one enemy of the state of Laos because they viewed Christians as basically the CIA and America and Western trying to come in through a different. You know, you couldn't beat us with bombs, and now you're trying to beat us with your religion.

And so, you know, going in there now, you can't pass out tracts. You can't go and preach. So now we have to reframe. How are we engaging with people?

What does it look like to pioneer when I can't do all these things I've always done? And so we ran an English school and.

And, you know, through relationships and through meals together and through time together, we start looking for opportunities of sharing. And so, yeah, living through that.

Now, Missions looks like you start a gym, you start a coffee house, you have tea with your neighbor, you walk through the streets and just have conversations with people. It is much more relational now.

And then those who are interested, you gather them together quietly and start the process of journeying towards Christ together. So, yeah, Missions has definitely gone through a sea change in my lifetime.

But actually, I've lived long enough to see the town where I started in India when I moved to the hills of India. So I started the first church in this state in northern India. It was up. It's a hill state in the Himalayas.

And so the Assemblies of God, the national church, asked me to go there to pioneer. We had no churches in that area. And so we went up and we started the first church.

And then we started a Bible school, started training people from that area, sending them out. And that church today, that is in the town where I used to live. It's a town of maybe 20,000 people, a small town up in the hills.

And that church today probably has 20, 30 people on a good Sunday. And the majority of them are outsiders because, you know, they are Nepalis who have moved there, people from other parts of India who have moved.

But for local people, the pressure is so great that people just don't come to the church long. Through the years, we've had at least two riots in the town over people coming to our church. We've had pastors beaten up a number of times.

And it's just a lot of pressure. And so local people look at it, hey, it's dangerous to go there.

And so back about 10 years ago, when we came back from Laos, we went back to the town. Instead of starting another church, we started a gym. And we just started working out with people, inviting people to our house.

And as a missionary, I never had a Hindu come to my house. I would invite them, but they would never come. I was never invited to a wedding. I was never invited to anybody else's house. It was distance.

They would be cordial in the streets, but. But there's distance because of the fear of who you are. But going back and starting a gym as a coach, people started coming to my house.

People started inviting me to their house. And in the last 10 years, we've seen more people come to faith in our gym in the last 10 years than we have in 30 years of the church. Wow.

So that is just the new paradigm of missions that I think actually pushes us in a right direction, that most people don't come to faith through an event, through a group. Most people come to faith through trusted relationships. They come to faith because a family member, a friend, a trusted person is sharing with them.

And sometimes in our zeal and urgency to do it fast, we're actually doing it in such a way that don't allow Muslims and Hindus time to process the gospel, because the gospel takes process. It takes a long time for a Muslim, a Hindu, a Buddhist, to think through the implications, to process through what we're saying.

And you don't have time to do that at an event. But in two years of coming to a gym and. And having tea and asking questions, you have time to process.

So things, you know, the new way we're doing missions, which is much more relational, gives people much longer to process the gospel.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:15:33

That's a good word. Good word. Joseph, do you think, is everyone called to pioneering?

I mean, it sounds like you have to have a significance, a specific skill set to be able to do the things that you're sharing about and have done. Is everyone called to pioneering or is it a certain group of people you think that are called to do the pioneering work?

Joseph Gordon: 00:15:56

Well, I think some of it is we do overcomplicate it. It's not nearly as complicated as we think it is. I think some of it comes from a misreading of Acts.

We read the book of Acts to say that apostles are the pioneers, primarily in Acts. Apostles followed the pioneering. So Peter came in behind a deacon who went and got a church movement started in Samaria.

But Peter and, you know, Peter and John did not start a movement in Samaria. It was a Deacon, who's just a deacon of the church, who. I don't know why he was in Samaria. Maybe he was a trader. Maybe.

I don't know why he's there, but he's there and doing his work. And then also Paul and Barnabas, you know, Antioch was not started by apostles. Antioch was started by scattered believers.

So there were scattered believers who went. And as they went, they were telling their Jewish friends. And at some point, some of those scattered believers said, you know what? I.

I think, you know, this gentile, he's. He's actually a pretty good guy, too. And. And we've been working together every day, and he comes to my shop every day.

He seems like I think Jesus loves him too. And so now they start sharing with these Gentiles. And so the apostles weren't primarily pioneering.

There's a few instances, like Athens and a few places like that, but for the most part, when they got there, there's already the nausea. Church is already there, and it's starting. And so apostles come and catalyze the work and come and, like, help establish and root the work.

But primarily in Scripture, it's just average, ordinary people who are living for Jesus, and they live for Jesus everywhere they go. So in that sense, you know, we, as missionaries, we are there to catalyze.

We are there to help the church that is become, you know, become all that it can be in Christ. But all of us should. Should be rubbing shoulders with sinners on a regular basis.

All of us should be, wherever we're at in the world, should be rubbing shoulders with those who need Jesus.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:18:14

Yeah, good word. Good word.

When it comes to spiritual warfare, being a pioneer going, you shared about places where, you know the Gospel, there was not a church, places where there was resistance. What are some things you learned about spiritual warfare in those seasons of pioneering?

Joseph Gordon: 00:18:35

Yeah, it's being spiritually aware. Now with my new assignment, you know, being in the States, it's just so much harder.

You know, when we lived in India, lived in Laos, we always had regular fasting days as part of every week, as a part of every season. You know, we would always have, all right, guys, you know, like, festival season's coming up. We need to get ready for it.

You know, there's going to be attacks, and we would have, you know, a week of fasting and prayer.

And so there is something about living on the front lines of darkness, you know, living at the edge of the light, where your radar goes up and you prepare yourself and your senses are up and you're you know, attuned more, and. And you seek the Lord more, and it shouldn't be like that.

I think that, you know, wherever we're at in the world, we should know the darkness is out there and we should be preparing. But sadly, we do when we get in the trenches, we do tend to be more like, oh, wow, we actually need to pray.

And, you know, I look at the life of Jesus and, you know, there's, you know, one of the stories of Christ that really informs me on spiritual warfare is that, you know, you see Jesus. You know, he at the transfiguration. You know, he's up on the mountain and he is transfigured.

He is spending time with the Father at the bottom of the hill. The disciples are trying to cast out a demon, and, you know, it's not working.

And so Jesus comes down and the Father says, you know, like, hey, your disciples can't do anything. And so he cast them out. And the disciples ask him, why couldn't we? And he said, this kind only comes out by prayer and fasting.

But you'll notice Jesus didn't stop to pray and fast. It's because he was attuned to the idea that, okay, I've got to be ready, and even what seems like a down season, you got to be ready.

So Jesus was on the mountain preparing for a moment that was to come.

Traditionally, what we do is we get in the moments and we say, hey, guys, fasting and praying, and that's how most of my career has gone, is that, you know, darkness sweeps in, you know, sickness sweeps in, you know, emotion sweeps in. And then we're like, wow, guys, man, we're under attack. We need to start praying. It would be far better.

So my point to all of this is that spiritually prepare yourself now for the darkness that is to come. So I think as workers, we need to be much more attuned in the good seasons when we're not under attack.

Wow, we need to be fasting, we need to be praying.

We need to be preparing ourselves spiritually right now because those moments are coming, and it would be better to be ready for them rather than react to them. So I think our spiritual warfare is primarily reactive instead of being proactive.

And we need to be more proactive of we are abiding on a regular basis with the Lord.

And then also we're setting aside moments and times of saying, you know what, guys, we got a few days today, so, hey, let's get down to some serious business of just really seeking the Lord. Let's spend some time. You know, fasting doesn't change God. Fasting changes us. You know, fasting doesn't move the hand of God.

Fasting just moves us to be able to actually clearly hear the voice of the Lord and what God wants to do. And so when we fast and say, you know what, God, I recognize my dependence. I'm setting aside everything else in my life.

I really need to hear from you in this moment. So that's not forcing God's hand to do something. It's just giving us more clarity to hear it. Yeah.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:22:33

So you mentioned that, you know, during festival seasons, and maybe somebody listening in, they're thinking, well, what. What's the correspondence with the festival season?

Because in the United States, a festival season, Christmas, Thanksgiving, you know, those are things that we eat a lot of food. But. But you mentioned that in a festival season that was when there's heightened sense of spiritual attacks.

Could you share a little bit more about that?

Joseph Gordon: 00:22:56

Yeah. We have seen everywhere we've ever lived, there has always been a course.

So like in India, in Diwali, in Dashera time, when you were living in Muslim areas, during Ramadan, if you're living in, like when we were in Laos, during PMAI season, there is heightened worship that happens during those times. You know, there is. There is heightened activity that is going on towards demonic forces at that time.

And there is a corresponding action in the earth that is happening in the heavenlies that as people are seeking more these false deities, there are things that start happening in people's lives. We went through a season in Laos where our first time there, PMI was just. It's loud. It's basically loud New Year.

And we were thinking, oh, it's just a New Year's festival. They throw water. It's nice.

And then you start finding out, leading up to it, there's all these religious ceremonies and all the temples are open all night and they're praying all night. And so our first PMI just. I mean, just out of nowhere, our son is walking downstairs. And I still.

I can't tell you, like, physically, you know, geometrically how it happened.

But just all of a sudden he falls down, you know, like off the side, over the rail, 12ft down, and, like, you know, like, you know, a really bad accident. The next pmi, Laurie had an accident. The next pmi, our other son, our. Our second son was hit by a car. And so then you start to realize, oh, wow.

Yeah, there are, like, there's attacks that are happening. And it seems to be really. These Things aren't happen times of the year, but every year something happens.

And so then you start to say, hey, we've got to get ready. So the next time before pmi, we tell the whole community, hey, we've got to get ready. We've got to pray. And you pray, and fast.

And all of a sudden, not only are those things not happening, but now you're also seeing an openness of neighbors coming and saying, you know, wow, can you guys tell us some stories? And things start happening that you start to see breakthroughs.

So, you know, we've seen it over and over that as we prepare ourselves, that, you know, the effects are mitigated and sometimes canceled and actually going the other direction. But, yeah, there's a. There's a lot of stuff attached to.

In the same way that we aren't preparing ourselves and we aren't hearing, and when we don't, not as much is happening. The same thing is happening on the other side that people following false religions, they're just doing their job.

They're just going through the motions. They're not worshiping, they're not doing the things that are bringing that false spiritual power to them.

And when they focus in on it, you know, there's also a heightened, you know, sense. You know, sense in them also.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:26:03

Joseph, so you shared about your family and the different things that happened with your sons and then your wife.

How do you navigate that pioneering and then the spiritual attacks that are there, how did you navigate that as a family with those conversations you had with your, I mean, age appropriate, obviously with. With your boys.

But to me, I would think as a, As a husband and father, that would, that would be challenging, right, because you're in a situation, you're pioneering, but then things are happening to your family. How did you navigate that season?

Joseph Gordon: 00:26:36

Yeah, not always. Well, you know, you know, in. In retrospect, you look back of things you wish you had done.

You know, I came from a home where, you know, I can't remember a conversation with my father. You know, my father was a good man, hard worker. But, you know, he was raised in an alcoholic home. He was not raised with attention.

So, you know, I don't know that I ever. I've reflected on it. My father's passed. He. And I don't. I don't know that my father ever told me he loved me.

I mean, I don't remember ever hearing those words. I never had, like, you know, close interactions with my father.

And so, yeah, so through the years, I've struggled with, like, wow, you know, we all hope that we do better, but then we're so influenced by how we were raised that it really does affect us. And so I wasn't always. I was a distant father at times.

I was so focused on the work, so focused on doing the thing God had called me to, that it could be all consuming. And I did have to, you know, learn on the journey that, you know, I'm not honoring God by neglecting my family.

And I can look back at times where I was just. Just going way too hard, way too much and more than God was asking me and neglecting my family. And so.

So I want to preface everything with, you know, you know, we can get so, so dedicated to God's work that we're not even actually dedicated to God anymore. And because if I'm neglecting my family, I'm not dedicated to God, you know, because that's. That's not God's calling. And so.

But with that, I would say, you know, like, Today I have three sons that reigns from 29 to 21. And my sons know that they're loved. They hear it almost every day that they're loved.

And my sons, we have a great relationship with our family today, you know, but, you know, through the years, we had to walk through some difficult times. You know, I was. Two of my sons had physical issues they dealt with in their life.

My one son is special needs, you know, and had some challenges in which made it challenges for pioneering. So we've gone through things with our kids that do make you question, are we in the right place? Are we doing the right thing?

And it is a hard navigation, and I don't think it should be easy, you know, if it's. It's hard because we care. And there are two things we care about that pull us. You know, I. I care about my kids, and I want the best for my kids.

And that care and concern keeps me focused on that. But then I care about these people God has called me to. And for God, one of them is not more important than the other.

Neither of them are disposable to God. Neither of them are negotiable to God. That God loves the loss and he loves my family. And so we have to live under that tension.

When we don't live under that tension, I think that's where we miss it, where we can easily just say, no, that's not good for my kids. I just got to do what's best for my kids.

Then we're not living under the tension, and we're probably not going to make good decisions when we say, man, it doesn't matter what happens to my family. I've just got to reach the loss. We're not living under the tension.

So I think we have to be a people that live under this tension constantly in our lives, that it should be pulling us constantly, that we should be. We should be going on our knees constantly. Because I'm broken. Because, man, I've got to see the church planted where it's not at.

But then I'm also broken because I want to see my kids loving Jesus and following the Lord and being prosperous in life, in their health and strength. And so we've got to live under those tensions.

And I believe God is good enough that if we'll live under the tension, he'll pull both of those things towards his perfect will.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:30:49

Wow.

Joseph Gordon: 00:30:50

Wow.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:30:50

Good word, Joseph. In those seasons, was there ever a time that, you know, you're a regional director, so we look up to the regional directors and our leaders.

Was there ever a time in those pioneering seasons where you thought about quitting and how did you persevere?

Joseph Gordon: 00:31:10

Probably, you know, like, I. You know, I honestly don't know that I ever came to a moment of, like, I'm done, just because I'm, you know, just.

I don't even know if it's a spiritual. I'm just stubborn enough that, like, I'm not going to quit, so, you know, I'm gonna quit, so. And that was just more of my father's, you know.

You know, you just don't quit. You just. You do your job.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:31:36

Yeah.

Joseph Gordon: 00:31:36

And so you don't have to like it. You just do your job. But I would say, you know, honestly, so, you know, we've seen kids go through, you know, struggles. Our kids struggle.

You know, that's. That's a burden.

I was arrested while I was in Laos, and while I was arrested, my family was, you know, interrogated and just put through a lot of stuff. You know, it's. You know, that's definitely a struggle, but honestly, never. None of those moments that I ever come to, okay, I'm done. The.

The only thing that we've gone through that leads me to the point of. And this isn't done with Jesus and isn't done with the work. It's just done with.

Done with organization and done with being a part is internal conflicts.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:32:33

Okay.

Joseph Gordon: 00:32:33

It is. You know, we've had. We went through a season where.

And I don't want to give motives to somebody else and speak to their motives, but we had A co worker that spread just malicious rumors about us. And that hurts, you know, and looking back, I was so focused on the work and so focused on what we were doing. I didn't always treat people well.

And so I can look back and say, man, I may not have treated these people the best. You know, I was just so focused on the work and either get on board or get out of the way.

And so I may not have treated them right and I may have given them, but at the end of the day, they spread things that they knew were lies and they were malicious and hurtful. And we've had people come to work with us that when they're in the States, oh, we love you guys. We're so excited to come and work with you.

And they get there, and within two days, they know how to do it better, and they're criticizing you, and then they're leaving, telling everybody you're bad leaders and bad people. And so anybody that's been in missions long has experienced some of that because, you know, like an idea you have in the States here, and when.

And then you get there and then you're under culture shock and you're under spiritual pressure, and all of a sudden you start acting in ways that you wouldn't normally act. So every missionary who's been in the work long has faced a moment of a co worker who came against them.

And when you actually look at Jesus, you know, this is the thing Jesus alludes to, that it was like it was a friend. And so when Pharisees are attacking, they're supposed to attack. You know, when the Romans are attacking, they're supposed to attack.

But when your friends deny you, when your friends sell you out, you know, that hurts, and it should hurt. And so. And I think, for I have seen more missionaries leave the field over conflict, internal conflict, than anything else.

I've seen more missionaries leave the field because, you know, two missionaries got crossways over how to do the work or where we're supposed to live or what we're supposed to do than anything else. And that's one of those of. I draw my inspiration directly from Christ, who, you know, the only thing that separated Judas and Peter, the only thing.

I mean, they both did reprehensible things. The only thing that was the difference was their reactions towards Jesus. You know, Judas ran away, took his life.

Peter ran to Jesus and made it right. And so. And Jesus was willing to accept both of them. I really believe that. That Judas was not unredeemable.

You know, he could have done the Same thing Peter did, which was come throw himself and said, forgive me, Lord. And you know, history could have been different, but.

But, you know, we have to be the kind of people that look out over the crowds, even the ones that say, crucify them, Even the ones that say we don't like him and say, father, forgive them, and we walk in a right spirit of forgiveness. I use a phrase a lot. I don't have any enemies. I just have friends that don't know it yet.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:36:00

Wow.

Joseph Gordon: 00:36:02

So we just treat everybody like, like a misguided friend. You know, you're. You're my friend and I love it. When Judas came to the garden to see Jesus, Jesus knew exactly why he was there.

And he looked straight at Judas and he said, friend, why have you come?

Aaron Santmyire: 00:36:20

Yeah.

Joseph Gordon: 00:36:21

So we just, we just have to treat people the way that Jesus treats us.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:36:26

Yeah. Good word, Good word.

You know, I, I did my MB Master in Business Administration project on, on unhealthy missionary retention and healthy missionary attrition. And it comes down to it, right? All the research points to conflict with colleagues on the field. That's the reason people leave.

And we think that we think about other things, but ultimately it comes down to, and I appreciate you sharing that, you know, it should hurt. You know, when we feel, when there's conflict and people, it should hurt.

And if it doesn't hurt us, then that's probably, there's probably something else going on inside of us that we don't feel that. So I appreciate your, your openness to help us. So you mentioned. I got the last question for you and then I'm going to ask you to pray.

If you pray for us. Earlier on I asked you about, we were talking about spiritual warfare. You said somebody that's preparing to leave to work and pioneering.

And you mentioned about, you know, we have great ideas in the United States and we get there and then we realize, well, it's not exact exactly how we thought it transitioned. So how that someone that feel God's called them to a pioneer work. They want to be a pioneer in missions.

What can they begin to do today to prepare in that way?

Joseph Gordon: 00:37:38

Yeah, I think we today we have to do what we can do. And what we can do today is create good habits.

So start today while you control your schedule, while you control your life, while you're not trying to learn another language and help your kids adjust to another culture, form good habits today. Your life's on a schedule today for most people.

If you're in America, start form the habit, get up early study the Word every day, pray every day, start taking seasons of fasting, where you're going to set aside days of like, man, I'm going to give one day a week. I'm just going to fast is we're going to give up a meal. Start setting good spiritual habits in your life today.

Secondly, I think today, the thing we can control today is you're not going to figure out how to plant a church in Mauritania today. Sitting in America and every idea you come up with, I can almost promise you it's going to be a bad idea.

It's going to be somebody else's either thought of or somebody else has tried and failed it. So, yeah, so those ideas, that's wasted time. So today what you need to be thinking of is what kind of person am I?

And am I reflecting the character of Christ?

If you actually look at first Timothy, chapter three, Paul writes to Timothy and he said, here are the qualifications for elders, here's the qualifications for deacons and Titus. He writes to Titus and said, these are the qualification. Titus, chapter one. These are the qualifications.

And if you look through those qualifications, I've recently started doing this of starting creating categories where I put in the category. How would you categorize these three lists?

So elders, deacons, and then the one in Titus, and then if you merge them together, I've come up with in my list, I have a list that has 24 qualifications of leaders. If you look at them and the ones that are redundant, put them together, 24 qualifications.

If you look at them, they come into basically three categories. They come into character, they come into relationships. And then the last category is things like, I would say a.

I can't think of a good word for it right now. I can't think of the word I've usually used. But basically capabilities or things, you know, things you have to learn.

So they would be things like, you know, handling the word of God. And if you look at that list, out of the 24 qualifications, 16 of them are about your character. Five of them are about your relationships.

Things like, you know, husband, you know, like how you treat your wife, how you treat your kids, hospitality to your neighbor. And then three of them are about your abilities about handling the word of God. So what you see in that 16 are what kind of person are you?

Five of them is how do you treat others? Which is character lived out. And then three of them are about your abilities.

We spend most of our time focused on what are the abilities we need to be a pioneer, what are the things I need to know to be a pioneer, you know, what are the strategies to pioneer a church? The most important thing in pioneering a church is what kind of person are you?

Aaron Santmyire: 00:41:31

Wow, that's good.

Joseph Gordon: 00:41:32

Who are you in Christ? That's what's most important.

I would encourage every listener, go back, take those lists, make your own lists, put them in the category, see it for yourself, and then start looking through those lists. Here's what you can do today. Look at the list. What am I lacking in?

So every day I try to pray, the prayer every day, because I know what's lacking in me. The way I was raised, from my background, the things that I work on. I pray every day. God, help me to be kind today.

It doesn't come natural, it doesn't come out of my background. God, help me to be gentle today. Help me to be the kind of person that treats people not with harshness, not with rashness.

Help me to treat people with gentleness today. These are things that I know that I need to pray for.

And I would encourage every listener to go and start looking at the list and saying, God, you know, what do I need you to work on in my life? Start that process today. God, make me into the kind of person that you can use to be a part of building your church.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:42:40

Good word, Joseph.

Joseph Gordon: 00:42:41

Will you pray for us? Father, we thank you that you are the God who is near. You're the God who never leaves us. You never turn your back on us.

Father, we're here today because we desire to see your kingdom established among all people everywhere. We're listening to this kind of podcast because we are concerned with the condition of the loss.

We're concerned with those who've never had access to the gospel, but God, with that concern, we turn inward today and we recognize that the thing hindering the loss from knowing you the most is just us. It's just us being the people you've called us to be. So, God, I pray that you would begin that work in us.

Help us, Lord, to form good habits in our life, that the habits that lead to good character and good relationships. Help us to be the kind of people that treat others the way you treat us. Jesus, work in us.

Do your work in us, so that one day we can go and we can be used to see your kingdom established among people who have never heard your name. Use us, Lord God, and make us into a people that reflect your glory in Jesus name. Amen.

Aaron Santmyire: 00:43:54

Amen.