Messy Homes and Grace: A Conversation with Dana K. White
Many people struggle with clutter in their homes, and this episode highlights that an unclean house does not necessarily equate to laziness or spiritual failure. Aaron welcomes Dana K. White, a well-known blogger and author who specializes in decluttering and organizing. Together, they explore the emotional impact of clutter, discussing how societal expectations can lead to shame for those who feel overwhelmed by their living spaces. Dana shares her personal journey of turning her struggles into a platform to help others, emphasizing the importance of grace and understanding in the face of these challenges. Listeners will gain practical tips on how to start decluttering, change their perspective on cleanliness, and foster a supportive environment for themselves and their loved ones.
Takeaways:
- Clutter in our homes can become overwhelming, but it doesn't define our worth.
- Keeping a clean house is not necessarily a spiritual issue; grace is vital.
- Changing the goal from perfection to better can help reduce feelings of shame.
- Taking small steps, like doing the dishes daily, can lead to significant improvements.
- A supportive partner can help alleviate feelings of failure and encourage progress.
- Recognizing that many successful women struggle with home organization can foster community.
Transcript
Hey there, and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Aaron:This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.
Aaron:And my name is Aaron Sannemeyer, and I get to be your host today.
Aaron:We have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us on the podcast Dana K.
Aaron:White, and we have a great conversation.
Aaron:She is a blogger, she's a writer, well known in how to organize and declutter your home.
Aaron:We have a great conversation today.
Aaron:You know, we're a lot of episodes into the podcast.
Aaron:Never had somebody specifically talk about this, but the realities of our home.
Aaron:And sometimes we can struggle with keeping our home clean, and sometimes we make that into a spiritual matter when it's not a spiritual matter and reconciling that.
Aaron:If our home is messy, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're lazy.
Aaron:The reality of it is coming back to the United States, people, we have more things in our home than we ever have.
Aaron:We have clutter in our home, whether we live in South Africa, we live in Norway, whether we live in Japan, wherever.
Aaron:Clutter and things can sometimes become overwhelming.
Aaron:And she speaks to the commonness of this problem and how we can address it and not allow shame to overtake us and get us to a place where our home.
Aaron:We feel helpless in our home and not wanting to be there.
Aaron:So just a great conversation.
Aaron:She'll share a little bit about she served on the mission, mission field, so she understands the reality of having somebody in the home to help you clean, but that doesn't optimally solve the problem of clutter.
Aaron:So you'll love the podcast.
Aaron:It was great, great having her on today do and ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.
Aaron:I know the podcasts I subscribe to are the ones I listen to show up on my feed every Monday or Tuesday.
Aaron:And thank you for spreading the word about The Clarity Podcast.
Aaron:100,000 downloads in, and we keep going on.
Aaron:My book, A Caring Family, came out in December.
Aaron:It's a book I wish I would have read when I was younger, when my kids were still at home.
Aaron:Just the reality that we can choose in life and in family to be loved and known are unique and special and how we can create and instill virtues in our home and in our family and those we love.
Aaron:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Dana K. White:So here we go.
Aaron:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Aaron:So excited to have a new friend of the podcast, Dana K.
Aaron:White.
Dana K. White:Yes, Dana K.
Dana K. White:White.
Aaron:There we go.
Aaron:She said it was not the UFC specialist, but that was not who I was having on today, so I knew that.
Aaron:But I'm excited to have her.
Aaron:Will you share a little bit about yourself?
Aaron:Once I read your book, I've read your resources.
Aaron:I was looking through the website and excited about our conversation today, but maybe somebody's listening in from Thailand or Gabon or somewhere, then they haven't had the opportunity yet.
Aaron:Will you share a little bit about yourself?
Aaron:And then I'm going to start out asking a bunch of questions.
Dana K. White:Yeah.
Dana K. White:So I am a mom of three.
Dana K. White:My kids are all young adults now in college.
Dana K. White:I am a writer primarily.
Dana K. White:That's why I started doing this, because I wanted to be a writer and my house was a disaster.
Dana K. White:And so I thought I was making a compromise by writing about my house as a way to, you know, learn about writing.
Dana K. White: I started a blog in: Dana K. White:She thinks it's hilarious that I am.
Dana K. White:I write about cleaning and organizing for a living when, yeah, cleaning and organizing have been my lifelong struggle and weakness.
Aaron:Wow, wow, wow, wow.
Aaron:So can you share a little bit about that?
Aaron:I mean, you're writing about something that your struggle and weakness.
Aaron:How.
Aaron:How has, how, how's God grown you in that time?
Dana K. White: started out in, like I said,: Dana K. White:And honestly, this blog that I started back then that has turned into books and all these other things was God's idea.
Dana K. White:I mean, you know, it was, it was one of those times where it couldn't have been from anywhere else because there is literally no way this is the thing I would be writing about.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:So I wanted to start a blog.
Dana K. White:I had prayed my whole entire life.
Dana K. White:God, please make me organized.
Dana K. White:Because this was a constant struggle for me.
Dana K. White:My house was always a disaster and I became a mom, thought that was going to cure me.
Dana K. White:In fact, it made it even harder.
Dana K. White:And I just was praying the day before my second son went to kindergarten.
Dana K. White:I was in church.
Dana K. White:Actually wasn't listening.
Dana K. White:I'm sorry.
Dana K. White:But I was, I was honestly, I was very frustrated because I had begged God to change this thing in me and he had not answered my prayer.
Dana K. White:And I said, God, why have you not answered my prayer?
Dana K. White:Because it's keeping me from doing this thing that I felt very much called by God to do to write.
Dana K. White:And he said, well, just write about that.
Dana K. White:And I was like, it's actually a really good idea.
Dana K. White:Okay.
Dana K. White:But I thought, I thought it was temporary.
Dana K. White:It was anonymous in the beginning.
Dana K. White:I had no intention of anyone know it was knowing it was me.
Dana K. White:I Came up with the name of my blog, A Slob Comes Clean.
Dana K. White:I didn't want to call myself a slob, but because it was anonymous, because it.
Dana K. White:I'd already called myself a slob, I just started being completely honest about what I was doing, what I wasn't doing, what I was thinking, what was.
Dana K. White:Make you know, what was going through my mind as I was trying to do all this.
Dana K. White:And I started to change my home.
Dana K. White:And it.
Dana K. White:I didn't teach anybody anything at first.
Dana K. White:I had no intention of anyone learning from me.
Dana K. White:And even as people started reading the blog, no one I knew because nobody I knew knew that I was doing this.
Dana K. White:Right?
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:But as people started reading, they were saying, please teach us what you're doing.
Dana K. White:And I thought they were bananas.
Dana K. White:I was like, why?
Dana K. White:Why would anyone want to learn about this from me?
Dana K. White:And that was a huge thing for me.
Dana K. White:I mean, and God showed me about two and a half years in, I was studying Acts and the letters of the apostles that year.
Dana K. White:And so I was in first Corinthians, Second Corinthians, you know, in second Corinthians, Paul talks about the thorn and how God said, no, I'm not taking that away because that's where my power is made perfect in that.
Dana K. White:And so I had been studying.
Dana K. White:I got into actually studying the Bible for myself at the same time.
Dana K. White:Coincidentally, not coincidentally at all.
Dana K. White:You know, at.
Dana K. White:As I was working on my house, like those two things were coinciding.
Dana K. White:And I always thought when I started that I must be missing something as a Christian woman.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Like, I was like, no, no, this is my dream.
Dana K. White:I want to be a mom.
Dana K. White:I want to have, you know, be a stay at home mom.
Dana K. White:That was, that was, you know, that's my life goal.
Dana K. White:And I was there and I still couldn't do the thing.
Dana K. White:And so I was like, okay, what is wrong with me?
Dana K. White:Like, I literally thought, there is something wrong with me.
Dana K. White:And so I was working on my house.
Dana K. White:I was figuring things out.
Dana K. White:At the same time, I was growing spiritually in a new way because I was studying for myself as opposed to, you know, many years of knowing Jesus and going to church and all that.
Dana K. White:But there's just a huge difference when you're studying for yourself.
Dana K. White:And.
Dana K. White:And God just showed me again and again and again.
Dana K. White:Your weakness is there for a reason.
Dana K. White:Because it helps, you know, me more.
Dana K. White:Like, it helps you need me.
Dana K. White:You're not supposed to be strong, you're supposed to need me.
Dana K. White:And, you know, it just affirmed and confirmed the reality of my relationship with Jesus having nothing to do with what I do.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:Only through grace, you know, and that at the same time as working on my house, also just.
Dana K. White:It freed me from the shame.
Dana K. White:And when the shame was gone and I realized, oh, God created me on purpose like this with the brain that I have.
Dana K. White:Yeah, I'm highly creative.
Dana K. White:I love being highly creative.
Dana K. White:I'm thankful to God for that.
Dana K. White:But as I was writing and other women were saying, that's exactly how my brain works.
Dana K. White:This is exactly what happens in my house, what goes through my mind.
Dana K. White:And I saw that they were intelligent, creative women who I thought were really fun and I would love to be friends with.
Dana K. White:And I went, oh, okay.
Dana K. White:So the creativity that I love, that he created me that way is directly related to seeing my stuff and my house differently.
Dana K. White:And that doesn't mean I say, oh, well, it doesn't matter.
Dana K. White:It matters.
Dana K. White:I mean, I've write, I've made a whole career on teaching people how to do this.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:So, like, don't.
Dana K. White:Don't think I'm saying it doesn't matter, but it doesn't matter in my relationship with Jesus, you know, it doesn't change how he sees me.
Dana K. White:He sees me through Jesus righteousness, you know, nothing that I do.
Dana K. White:And that shame being gone and realizing God made me with the brain that I have freed me to not feel like a failure, because the way everybody else says that they do, it doesn't seem to work for me.
Dana K. White:Instead, I just had to figure out what does work for me and the way that God did create me.
Aaron:That's a good word.
Aaron:That's a good word.
Aaron:And you've kind of started answering that.
Aaron:One of my first questions I had for you, this idea that trying to get our house and our home clean enough to impress God, you share.
Aaron:That's a problem.
Aaron:Can you share just a little bit more about that?
Dana K. White:Well, I think it's.
Dana K. White:Anything that we try to do to impress God is a problem.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:And this is the example that he gave me to share.
Dana K. White:You know, I've built a platform on teaching people who feel hopeless in their homes like I was, how to do it.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:And this is this place he's put me in life.
Dana K. White:And I'm like, well, I have to share Jesus.
Dana K. White:And this is the example that I have of grace.
Dana K. White:And so it's the same thing for anything.
Dana K. White:But, you know, I talk a lot about the phrase cleanliness is next to Godliness.
Dana K. White:That's not in the Bible.
Aaron:Exactly.
Dana K. White:And how.
Dana K. White:How dangerous it can be.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Because anything that we think If I do this thing that's going to get me closer to God, then we don't get it, right?
Dana K. White:Like, we're off track.
Dana K. White:And being off track is so dangerous.
Aaron:Yeah, for sure it is.
Aaron:So the reality of it is you share that messiness and our homes not being organized is not necessarily a spiritual issue, Right?
Aaron:And sometimes we take those challenges and make them spiritual issues.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:So, you know, I've.
Dana K. White:I've heard the same, you know, when we say, hey, let's don't think that, you know, getting our house under control is the thing that we need to do to please God.
Dana K. White:I've heard that same message from the perspective of the person who can't stop cleaning, who is, you know, always their home is perfect, and they just can't let anybody see the mess.
Dana K. White:And then they are always working on it and stuff.
Dana K. White:And then they realize, hey, you can relax, God.
Dana K. White:That's not what God's asking of you.
Dana K. White:That's a great message, but it's discouraging for the person like me.
Dana K. White:I'm just going to be honest because the person like me hears that and says, well, I wish I had that problem, right?
Dana K. White:Like, my problem is that I have tried.
Dana K. White:I have worked and worked and studied and tried to figure out and done all the things that people told me to do, and I still can't do it.
Dana K. White:And so for me, it's not an issue of relaxing.
Dana K. White:It's an issue of, oh, I'm.
Dana K. White:I'm actually flawed.
Dana K. White:You know, like, I'm.
Dana K. White:I'm flawed and I don't know.
Dana K. White:And so is there grace for that?
Dana K. White:Because I think sometimes.
Dana K. White:Well, I think a lot of times it feels like the natural human tendency is to think I'm going to do everything I can, and then the grace will fill in the gaps, right?
Dana K. White:Like, I think that's.
Dana K. White:That's just one of those things when you're not really diving in and saying, no, the grace is the only thing.
Dana K. White:What Jesus did is the only thing.
Dana K. White:And so it is not a matter of doing everything I can.
Dana K. White:It's a matter of understanding.
Dana K. White:It does not matter now.
Dana K. White:It.
Dana K. White:Yes, your house matters.
Dana K. White:Like I said, I've built a career on this, but we have to discuss that nuance, right?
Dana K. White:The nuance is really important.
Dana K. White:Of course, there's things in life that matter.
Dana K. White:I mean, this is what the whole big part of the New Testament is about, right?
Dana K. White:Is helping us understand this.
Dana K. White:Like, what?
Dana K. White:Wait, what?
Dana K. White:So it doesn't matter.
Dana K. White:But then we're also supposed to.
Dana K. White:But, you know, but I also Am very, very clear.
Dana K. White:You know, I.
Dana K. White:You said you read it.
Dana K. White:I'm not sure how much of it you read, but, you know, it was so hilarious to me.
Dana K. White:Hilarious.
Dana K. White:I think a lot of the Bible is hilarious.
Dana K. White:Like, in a good way.
Dana K. White:Not like, you know, I mean, I just.
Dana K. White:But I'm a person who likes to laugh anyway, you know, But I.
Dana K. White:When Jesus in Matthew, and he has the same, you know, it's recorded in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
Dana K. White:But when the Pharisees with the first time, he just, like, calls them out on their hypocrisy.
Dana K. White:And you see his irritation.
Dana K. White:It's because they were upset that his disciples had not washed their hands before they ate.
Dana K. White:Like, cleanliness was the actual issue.
Dana K. White:And I believe that the reason he used this issue as the nuanced, defining factor is that of course it's a good thing.
Dana K. White:Of course you need to wash your hands.
Dana K. White:I'm just telling everybody, please wash your hands.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:Like, I mean, it freaks me out.
Dana K. White:And we were talking, you know, a lot of people listening are in missions.
Dana K. White:And, you know, sometimes you don't have the choice, but when you have the choice, you wash your hands.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:Like, I mean that it is a good thing, but don't make it a spiritual issue.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:So, you know, at the end of that, I think it's in one of them Matthew, Marker, Luke, I can't remember.
Dana K. White:But, you know, he says, you weigh people down with burdens they cannot carry, and then you won't lift a finger to help them.
Dana K. White:And it's that idea of, you know, it's okay for you to believe this is a spiritual issue.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:And I think that's what's happened historically a lot.
Dana K. White:You know, I don't know.
Dana K. White:I want to get into all that, but I do.
Dana K. White:I mean, like, it.
Dana K. White:There's a lot of people who've been perfectly fine with women being confused on this issue, that if they really are a Christian woman who loves Jesus, then their house is supposed to be clean.
Dana K. White:Because that's very convenient, right.
Dana K. White:For the people who get to enjoy the clean house, you know, I'm sorry, should I not go into all that right now?
Dana K. White:I'm not sure where you want to go on this.
Aaron:You're being honest, but you're being honest.
Aaron:You're being honest.
Dana K. White:So we have to have that conversation.
Dana K. White:Because, of course, the clean house matters when Jesus is.
Dana K. White:Jesus did not say, don't wash your hands when he was.
Dana K. White:When this was the example.
Dana K. White:He never said washing hands is bad.
Dana K. White:He's just saying, don't make It a spiritual issue.
Dana K. White:It's a tradition.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:It doesn't feel like a tradition, but it's a tradition.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:Anyway, I'm getting a little preachy.
Dana K. White:Sorry.
Aaron:Oh, good word, Good word.
Aaron:You're passionate.
Aaron:We love to have.
Aaron:We love to have passionate conversations.
Aaron:One of the other things that, you know, that really stuck out to me was that you talked that an unclean house doesn't necessarily equal laziness.
Aaron:And I think culturally, sometime.
Aaron:And my wife and I were on the.
Aaron:In the car on the way home today.
Aaron:You know, we've been overseas for 10.
Aaron:About 10 years, and now back in the United States.
Aaron:And it's a shift in the people in the United States, not necessarily having people in their homes anymore.
Aaron:And we started talking about, you know, people.
Aaron:Maybe both people are out of the home, they're working, and then they come home and trying to keep a house that's.
Aaron:That they would think is presentable to have people to come in and quotation marks.
Aaron:Presentable.
Dana K. White:Right.
Aaron:But they're not lazy people.
Aaron:But sometimes we see a clean house.
Aaron:If it's messy, then it's because you're lazy.
Aaron:How have you seen that impact people emotionally and then an impact and maybe.
Dana K. White:Socially the shame is there.
Dana K. White:And it also is.
Dana K. White:I mean, not to.
Dana K. White:This sounds a little funny to say, but, like, one of the things that I have realized is that a lot of very driven, successful, highly intelligent women struggle in this area.
Dana K. White:I'm not saying that.
Dana K. White:That it's, you know what.
Dana K. White:But I'm just saying this struggle is often very surprising.
Dana K. White:Who struggles with this.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Because they are busy, driven people.
Dana K. White:And that's why it was so disheartening to me when I kept on struggling, because I was like, no, no, no, no.
Dana K. White:I've always been able to figure things out.
Dana K. White:I'm a tackler.
Dana K. White:I tackle things.
Dana K. White:I get it.
Dana K. White:You know, I'm like, this is.
Dana K. White:This is how I'm going to do this.
Dana K. White:I'm going to figure this thing out.
Dana K. White:Obviously, I kind of had done that over the years, but this.
Dana K. White:This thing felt unfigureoutable to me.
Dana K. White:And so it became such a source of shame.
Dana K. White:And the issue was not that I wasn't working on my house, it's that I honestly, it's overthinking in a lot of ways.
Dana K. White:You know, like little things.
Dana K. White:Like, I am great at projects.
Dana K. White:Projects are my thing.
Dana K. White:That's why I write books.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:I would treat my house like a project.
Dana K. White:I would, you know, block off an entire weekend, do nothing but clean the house, which really Meant shoving everything in one bedroom that I could lock the door and then get the rest of the house clean, you know, and, and then I would sit back and go, oh man, okay.
Dana K. White:And then it wouldn't last.
Dana K. White:You know what I mean?
Dana K. White:Like that it wouldn't last.
Dana K. White:But I, I was just like, wait a minute, this is how I tackle things that doesn't work on my home.
Dana K. White:So I had to figure that out.
Dana K. White:So even though I was working, I wasn't making the impact that I needed to make because I didn't understand which things mattered, which things were the non negotiables.
Dana K. White:And let's just be honest, it's the most boring stuff.
Dana K. White:That's the stuff that has to be done, you know, and so I was always like trying to find a better way.
Dana K. White:And there just literally is not a better way.
Dana K. White:You just have to do the dishes every day.
Dana K. White:I mean like it stinks, but you just do, you know, so it's that, it's that and then the shame of the shame plus the exhaustion that you know that it's going to require if your house is under control to get stuff out.
Dana K. White:And you know, let's just be honest, a lot of the issue is stuff.
Dana K. White:I mean like that was so much of my issue was I had so much stuff in my home because I didn't see limits, which is a wonderful quality, right?
Dana K. White:To not see limits.
Dana K. White:But also when I didn't see limits in my home as far as how much stuff I could bring in, it was a constant disaster, you know, and there was no hope of me ever getting my house under control.
Dana K. White:But I kept thinking if I just found the best organizing system, if I just whatever.
Dana K. White:So I would make these detailed organizing systems and then I couldn't maintain it, you know.
Aaron:Wow, wow, wow, wow.
Aaron:So I'm going to ask when we get a little bit further in some practical tips, maybe somebody's looking, you can give them some practical tips.
Aaron:But one of the things I found very interesting was, is you talked about the Proverbs 31 Woman and Women and that cleanliness was not.
Aaron:It's not in that.
Aaron:And then in that description.
Aaron:And so can you share what the Proverbs 31 woman looks like?
Aaron:And then cleanliness is not there and kind of help merge.
Aaron:Merge that for us.
Dana K. White:Yeah, I think it's what we were talking about as far as the assuming that the reason for a messy house is laziness.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:That's the assumption.
Dana K. White:And so she is a very, very non lazy woman.
Dana K. White:She's very busy, she's very productive.
Dana K. White:She handles a lot of things.
Dana K. White:And so therefore, women are scared to read that chapter of the Bible.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Like, it feels sometimes scary.
Dana K. White:And it just is assumed that they're talking about a clean, a clean house.
Dana K. White:So, like when you Google is cleanliness next to godliness in the Bible?
Dana K. White:When you Google that, the results are all sorts of different things and they all say no.
Dana K. White:And most of them say no, but.
Dana K. White:And then they'll have some mention of the Proverbs 31:women.
Dana K. White:And so I went through that chapter and it never talks about a clean house.
Dana K. White:It never talks about organizational skills.
Dana K. White:It never, as far as stuff goes, obviously, you know, she did have servants too.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:But even then, it never says it's always tidy, it's always clutter free.
Dana K. White:It's, you know, any, any Proverbs language version of that.
Dana K. White:It's not there.
Dana K. White:And so that it's really important to understand that because the, the way that she's described describes so many of the women that I work with.
Dana K. White:I mean, as far as like owning their own business.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:Driven, entrepreneurial, creatively thinking.
Dana K. White:They get a lot of joy out of making things themselves.
Dana K. White:You know, she doesn't just buy the blanket.
Dana K. White:She like, doesn't make it, you know, I mean, like, she actually, all that kind of stuff is like, commonly found in those of us who struggle with clutter.
Aaron:Yeah.
Aaron:Wow, wow, wow, wow.
Aaron:And so this, you, you, as you've shared that your passion around this, it's become more and more evident, and you mentioned it in the book, as I read it, that how this impacts women emotionally.
Aaron:So this is not just a house thing.
Aaron:This is not.
Aaron:You talked about shame and then there's this emotional impact on it.
Aaron:So when you're helping people, you're not just helping them organize a house and physical things, you're also helping them emotionally.
Aaron:And is that something you foresaw when you first began this, that you were going to be helping people emotionally, or did you just think may?
Aaron:Well, God gave me this opportunity to write on something I wasn't necessarily great at.
Aaron:This was going to be an opportunity to write, but you're really having an emotional impact on people's lives.
Aaron:And so how do you walk with them emotionally to get to the place of healing for maybe some of the shame that they felt from this?
Dana K. White:Yeah.
Dana K. White:So I, when I started, like I said, I had no intention of this being a helpful thing for other people, but because it was just me writing about what I was doing, I did want people to read it.
Dana K. White:Okay, don't get me wrong.
Dana K. White:I didn't like, oh, people just.
Dana K. White:I wanted people to read it.
Dana K. White:Just nobody I knew, I didn't want anybody I knew to read it.
Aaron:Right.
Dana K. White:But as I did that, I was completely honest.
Dana K. White:And that was the thing that people responded to.
Dana K. White:So more than, oh, she has, you know, advice to follow and all this kind of stuff, it's.
Dana K. White:Somebody understands.
Dana K. White:And I hear that from people all the time.
Dana K. White:I have been called people's long lost twin.
Dana K. White:They're, you know, we were separated at birth.
Dana K. White:I think we share a brain.
Dana K. White:I mean, I.
Dana K. White:It's one of those things where you go, you have to, you go.
Dana K. White:But literally I hear that all the time.
Dana K. White:They're like.
Dana K. White:And everybody says, I didn't know anyone else thought this way.
Dana K. White:And so that honesty is the actual most impactful thing for people like me.
Dana K. White:And so.
Dana K. White:And for anybody in a struggle, like, they need.
Dana K. White:Don't just tell me how it all ends up.
Dana K. White:I need to know from the nittiest, grittiest beginning point, what's the very first step?
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Like, that's it.
Dana K. White:So what I do, I always like to say I'm not a mental health professional.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Like, that's not what I do.
Dana K. White:But at the same time, you're helping.
Dana K. White:Yeah.
Dana K. White:And I hear people all the time who tell me how their lives have been changed because of, first of all realizing they're not alone.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:Realizing there is actually hope for them.
Dana K. White: mpletely messy spaces back in: Dana K. White:Like, those are still up.
Dana K. White:And there is sometimes a part of me that's like, can we just get rid of those and just have the books?
Dana K. White:But I know, I know how skeptical people are that there is any hope for them and they need to go see that.
Dana K. White:And I hear that from people all the time.
Dana K. White:They say, I needed to see that.
Dana K. White:You were actually talking about a really messy house.
Dana K. White:You weren't just making.
Dana K. White:You know, because that's the problem is most organizing advice that I would see.
Dana K. White:Their before picture was like my dream.
Dana K. White:After picture, I was like, that's what you're starting with.
Dana K. White:You know, so it'd be like, well, there's no hope.
Dana K. White:So that, that honesty is, is the key.
Dana K. White:And then I, I'm really big on.
Dana K. White:I'm not a mental health professional, so I'm just going to teach you how to declutter.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:But the actual action of decluttering and, you know, we Focus on visible progress.
Dana K. White:Progress and only progress.
Dana K. White:Not putting yourself at a deficit where you're, you know, you can't stop at any time.
Dana K. White:And because we focus on that, it allows people to really start feeling successful and feeling competent and capable.
Dana K. White:And as they do that, that's where those internal changes start to feel possible and they start happening as you're decluttering.
Dana K. White:But I'm just here to help with the decluttering.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:And another thing I do is I take the emotion out of it, like, because that's me.
Dana K. White:I would have held onto everything if I was, you know, thinking about how I felt about my stuff.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:So I just, I'm like, we're just going to deal with actual facts, the space that you have and the reality of what you would remember and all that kind of stuff.
Aaron:Wow.
Dana K. White:Wow.
Aaron:No, I go 20 ways, but I won't do that to you.
Aaron:So the idea of maybe somebody's listening in, then I'm going to ask for, personally for some suggestions for individuals.
Aaron:But so somebody, maybe they have a friend or maybe they have a.
Aaron:A relative, or maybe it's a mom and her daughter or daughter and her mom or a dad, and there's whatever, whatever way you want to make that connection.
Aaron:Somebody that has a close relationship and they see somebody that the one somebody they love, somebody they care for and they're struggling in this area of not being able to keep up their home and clutter, or they have too many things and they're not able to do that separation.
Aaron:As you, Sarah, shared about the emotions that tied with things, how can they begin a conversation where it does not come off as judgmental and it does not come off as criticism, but as a way to genuinely care and love and be a friend or a parent or a friend, whatever, or brother, sister, whatever.
Aaron:Is that a fair question?
Dana K. White:It's absolutely a fair question.
Dana K. White:So the number one thing is for you, if you're the one wanting to help somebody, is to go ahead and understand.
Dana K. White:I'm so sorry about that.
Dana K. White:Go ahead.
Dana K. White:For you to go ahead and understand, going into the conversation, that they don't need to be convinced that their life would be better without clutter.
Aaron:Okay.
Dana K. White:They know that.
Dana K. White:Okay.
Dana K. White:And it's, it's hurtful, right, When.
Dana K. White:When it.
Dana K. White:I call it like clean splaining, you know, I mean, it's like that, like, oh, did you know that if you would get rid of this stuff, you know, or that if you.
Dana K. White:And they're, they're like, I know, but I don't know how.
Dana K. White:And Then that makes them feel dumb and they hold on quicker.
Dana K. White:So the whole like, you know, the reason people were saying that this is changing their lives as well was the honesty about this is a real struggle.
Dana K. White:Acknowledging the reality of the struggle.
Dana K. White:You know, the thing I tell people to do is say, well, I heard this lady on a podcast and she was funny.
Dana K. White:I don't know if I've been funny today or not.
Dana K. White:I'm on cold medicine.
Dana K. White:But you know what I mean?
Dana K. White:Like, she, it made a lot of sense.
Dana K. White:I'd never thought about it that way or whatever.
Dana K. White:And to work on your own stuff first, here's the number one thing.
Dana K. White:Okay, I totally know you may be in a situation where you have a relative or somebody living in your house who has clutter issues, right?
Dana K. White:Work on your own clutter first, okay?
Dana K. White:Work on your own stuff first.
Dana K. White:Because everybody has clutter and it is very easy to see other people's clutter issues, right?
Dana K. White:And if you are not working on your own stuff and you're just fixated on how they should get rid of their stuff because their stuff has no meaning, your stuff might be equally irrational, but it has tons of meaning right to you.
Dana K. White:And then they have their own.
Dana K. White:And so especially if you live in the same house, work on your own stuff and do it in a visible space, your stuff and neutral stuff.
Dana K. White:Because if you do that, then the experience, like I talked about before, like, I didn't, I didn't know what all was going to happen from decluttering.
Dana K. White:But as I got rid of stuff, I was like, oh, it's easier to live in this house.
Dana K. White:It's easier to maintain.
Dana K. White:I'm more willing to let people come over.
Dana K. White:Okay, you know, and so if you do that decluttering in a visible space and they get to see it, that opens up the conversation.
Dana K. White:So.
Dana K. White:And even if they never do declutter, your house will be better.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:But, but I also, you know, I have a printable and decluttering the Speed of Life and Organizing for the Rest of Us.
Dana K. White:Those are two of my books that have my five step process in it.
Dana K. White:I always tell people to get the printable and take it with you if you are like, actually if you've been invited to help somebody take that printable so that it's outside of you saying you need to get rid of your stuff.
Dana K. White:Instead it's, well, this lady on the Internet, I heard her on a podcast one time, this lady says to start with the trash, anything that's obvious trash, and then we go with the easy stuff.
Dana K. White:So we go through the process, but they are the ones making the decision.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:It really does build momentum.
Dana K. White:Like, it's.
Dana K. White:It's hard to not be like, hello, do you not see that this is trash?
Dana K. White:That is not helpful.
Dana K. White:Because they're going to hold on tighter.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:And so you move through things, move through the process.
Dana K. White:And because there's no emotions in it, it takes that power struggle part of it out.
Aaron:Good word, good word.
Aaron:So somebody listening in and there's maybe a woman listening into this and she feels hopeless in her home.
Aaron:She goes home.
Aaron:It doesn't give her joy.
Aaron:She's struggling.
Aaron:Is there a few things that she could begin to do today or to think about today to help in this process?
Aaron:Then I'm going to ask you on the side of the husband, what the husband can do.
Aaron:I hate to differentiate this into gender, but you've written, you've written, you've written mainly to women.
Aaron:So I.
Aaron:If the women and men listening into this.
Aaron:I'm not saying men don't clean and women do all the cleaning.
Aaron:That's not what I'm saying.
Aaron:But you have read your book specifically towards women.
Aaron:So that's why I'm asking in this direction.
Aaron:So if a woman's feeling helpless in her home and she's just.
Aaron:It's not giving her joy, are there one or two things she could begin to do today?
Aaron:And we'll definitely put a link for the five steps in there and a link to your resources, but maybe some encouragement for her.
Aaron:And then I'm going to ask you a question for the man.
Dana K. White:Yeah.
Dana K. White:I just want to be clear that the reason I write for women is mostly because I'm a woman, but also because that it is generally women who.
Dana K. White:This becomes an identity struggle for them.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:Like, what is wrong with me as a woman?
Dana K. White:I thought this was supposed to be easy for women.
Dana K. White:Like most of the stuff that people say, like, oh, you know, he can't do it.
Dana K. White:It's generally they're talking about men.
Dana K. White:You know, it's like a lot of times it's wives talking about men.
Dana K. White:And yet I'm the one who struggled.
Dana K. White:Struggle more in my home.
Dana K. White:So the first thing that I would recommend, I'm going to give two different first things.
Dana K. White:Okay.
Dana K. White:Because some people be like, who doesn't do their dishes every single day?
Dana K. White:Do your dishes.
Dana K. White:If you don't know what to do, do the dishes.
Dana K. White:It gives you something to start with and it makes a huge impact.
Dana K. White:Like, that is the thing I used to have to catch up on dishes Every time I tried to clean my house and I would spend five hours in the kitchen, I would use up all my energy in there catching up, and I would never get to the rest of the house, right?
Dana K. White:So do the dishes today, do the dishes tomorrow.
Dana K. White:If you can't do all your dishes today, do as many as you can.
Dana K. White:You know, like, that is powerful.
Dana K. White:The other thing is to change your goal.
Dana K. White:From a house that I love that looks like the ones I've seen on Pinterest, change your goal to better, okay?
Dana K. White:Make better your goal.
Dana K. White:Because when I would look at my house, I would be like, I need to get organized.
Dana K. White:I want this, I want that.
Dana K. White:And that was too overwhelming, right?
Dana K. White:Like, I couldn't do that.
Dana K. White:But if better is your goal, you can literally throw away one piece of trash and you've achieved your goal.
Dana K. White:And there is something very powerful about that to then feel successful and competent and keep going, okay?
Dana K. White:My goal is better.
Dana K. White:As long as my goal was for my house to be great and perfect, I didn't make progress.
Dana K. White:When I changed my goal to better, I finally made the progress I had always wanted to make, and I got my house to the place where I wanted it to be.
Dana K. White:But I did it by changing my goal to better.
Dana K. White:So the physical thing to do, grab a black trash bag, recycling bin if you have it.
Dana K. White:Like, this is not the time to start learning how to recycle, okay?
Dana K. White:Only if you already have one.
Dana K. White:Grab a black trash.
Dana K. White:The reason I say a black trash bag is that you can't see the stuff you've put in it, right?
Dana K. White:Go to your most visible space in your home and just throw away trash.
Dana K. White:Take a picture before you start.
Dana K. White:Throw away trash for two minutes, five minutes, whatever, and take another picture and see the difference, right?
Dana K. White:If you get all the trash out, what in there is easy.
Dana K. White:What already has an established home, I can.
Dana K. White:I can put away.
Dana K. White:See what you can do in five minutes and flip back and forth between those pictures and see the power of working for small amounts of time.
Dana K. White:And that really starts to shift and change, especially when the goal is such a big, daunting thing.
Dana K. White:It's so powerful to see what you can do in short periods of time.
Aaron:Good word.
Aaron:You know, my mom, I won't tell, make it a long story, but my mom went back to school when I was in ninth grade, and she said, I want you to do the dishes.
Aaron:And for these next two years, until I become a nurse, then you'll never have to touch another dish the rest of your life.
Aaron:But in those two Years time I came, I fell in love with doing dishes because you started off with a mess, and then it was clean.
Aaron:And like the kitchen, because the clean kitchen, it was a small kitchen, but it came my clean list demanded.
Aaron:And the rest of my life, I've been a dish guy, so I'm glad to do the dishes.
Aaron:So it does help.
Aaron:So for the husband, a man listening into this, any encouraging words for him how he can support his wife and not use it as a power play, and how he cannot make it a.
Aaron:How he can be an encouragement and not be in shame.
Aaron:His wife in this.
Aaron:In this.
Aaron:In this arena.
Dana K. White:If your wife struggles, I hope that this episode has helped you acknowledge and understand that it's a legitimate struggle and that it is not.
Dana K. White:And I can't say this for everybody, because obviously it gets to this point in some relationships, right?
Dana K. White:But if this is her legitimate, genuine struggle, it is not that she is leaving the dishes undone out of spite.
Dana K. White:She may have, like me, the inability to see incremental mess.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Like, I didn't see the dishes getting so bad.
Dana K. White:And, you know, my husband, one of the nicest things he ever said to me was, I think there's something really wrong with you and I.
Dana K. White:And he wasn't being unkind.
Dana K. White:He was just legitimately, like, I've realized you don't do this on purpose.
Dana K. White:And that was so powerful because I felt so understood.
Dana K. White:That feeling of being understood and acknowledging that this is a real challenge and helping how you can.
Dana K. White:And if she.
Dana K. White:If this has been a struggle her whole life, like it was for me and like it is for so many women, then, you know, just go ahead and do the dishes, go ahead and do laundry, do things that have to be done anyway to help.
Dana K. White:And like I said for, you know, how do you help somebody else start working on your own clutter?
Dana K. White:Not as a.
Dana K. White:I'm doing this so you'll do it too.
Dana K. White:Right?
Dana K. White:But, like, just go ahead and do these things as a way to help and be, you know, help her be able to keep moving forward.
Dana K. White:Right.
Aaron:It's.
Aaron:Good word.
Aaron:Good word.
Aaron:And being that support that needs to be there.
Aaron:And I love how you said it's not, you know, to recognize this is not.
Aaron:This is not all encompassing the majority of time.
Aaron:It's not out of spite.
Aaron:It's not that they're doing it to dig.
Aaron:It's just.
Aaron:It's just.
Aaron:It's a challenge and we can help.
Aaron:Anything else I should ask you before I ask you to pray for us?
Dana K. White:Well, I mean, can we Talk about the reality that a lot.
Dana K. White:If a lot of people are in the mission field, there's a very good chance that a lot of people have help.
Aaron:There you go.
Dana K. White:You know, I mean, that's very, very common.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:You know, I was a missionary in Thailand for two years, and I loved having help.
Dana K. White:But also, I think there is an understanding when you do have somebody helping out that it's not magic.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:Like, it's not.
Dana K. White:And I.
Dana K. White:It isn't.
Dana K. White:And the reality is, if you have.
Dana K. White:If it's not lasting, you know, if it's like, okay, somebody comes and cleans and we go straight back, then these.
Dana K. White:The.
Dana K. White:The power of the daily stuff.
Aaron:Yeah.
Dana K. White:When your help is not there, and the reality of clutter.
Dana K. White:You know, I have been amazed, honestly, because I will get emails from people, like, in Sweden, and I'm like, I thought all of y'all were just super minimalist, you know, and that sounds so terrible to say, right.
Dana K. White:Because we do.
Dana K. White:We just have Japan, you know, I mean, my books have been published in Japan, and I'm like, really?
Dana K. White:But I hear from people who are like, yes, it is a struggle that everybody faces, so you are not alone.
Dana K. White:And the clutter thing, if it.
Dana K. White:If it's not have.
Dana K. White:If you're like, I can't believe that we still struggle when we have help consistently.
Dana K. White:What is the problem?
Dana K. White:It's very likely you're over your clutter threshold.
Dana K. White:And your clutter threshold is the amount of stuff that you can easily keep under control.
Dana K. White:Right.
Dana K. White:And so the answer is likely less stuff.
Dana K. White:Less, you know, fewer things.
Aaron:Yeah.
Aaron:Because you're right.
Dana K. White:You.
Aaron:The people that are helping in the house are not throwing your stuff away for you.
Aaron:You know, if you're bringing stuff in, they might clean it, but they're not gonna.
Aaron:They're not gonna get rid of it.
Aaron:So.
Dana K. White:No.
Aaron:Anything else is that you've had.
Aaron:You've served on the mission field.
Aaron:Anything else you think that would speak to missionaries when it comes to this subject?
Dana K. White:It's been a while.
Dana K. White:I'm trying to think.
Aaron:I love how you address that, though, because you're 100% right.
Aaron:The majority of people that listen into this, there's somebody that comes in at least a few days a week that helps them keep the clean.
Aaron:But you're right.
Aaron:The clutter is.
Aaron:And you emphasize that in your writings, that the clutter's majority of time is the challenge.
Dana K. White:Yeah, it is.
Aaron:Good deal.
Aaron:Will you pray for us?
Dana K. White:Absolutely.
Dana K. White:Lord, we come to you today in prayer that the words that we've spoken have glorified you.
Dana K. White:Lord, if I said anything wrong, please, Lord, through your holy Spirit, block whatever I said, that was wrong.
Dana K. White:Lord, I don't want to cause any confusion, Lord, but we do want to bring clarity.
Dana K. White:We do want to identify what matters.
Dana K. White:And what matters is you and what you've done for us and your love for us, Lord.
Dana K. White:And I pray that those who are listening who either have personally felt this shame and confusion over this particular issue, or those who love those who have felt shame and confusion over this issue.
Dana K. White:Lord, I just pray that we would focus on grace and know that there is hope.
Dana K. White:But the ultimate hope is only through what you've done for us.
Dana K. White:In your name.
Dana K. White:Amen.
Aaron:Amen.
