Navigating Grief and Hope: A Conversation with Kirby Kelly
Kirby Kelly returns to the podcast today introducing her compelling work, "The Fabric of Hope," which addresses the complexities of navigating grief and finding solace in faith amid life's challenges. Through this episode, we aspire to illuminate the transformative power of hope and connection, urging listeners to reflect upon their own relationships and the threads that weave together the tapestry of their lives.
The primary focus of our conversation on Back Channel with Foth today revolves around the profound concept of cultivating meaningful friendships, as explored through the insights of our esteemed guest, Dick Foth. In our conversation, we delve into the biblical notion that it is indeed not good for man to be alone, emphasizing the essential nature of companionship and community in our lives. We further discuss the intricate relationship between friendship and love, particularly highlighting the sacrificial nature of true friendship as articulated in the Gospel of John.
Takeaways:
- Cultivating friendships requires significant effort and intentionality, as emphasized in the conversation.
- The concept of loneliness versus solitude highlights the importance of relationships in our lives.
- Jesus's teaching on friendship illustrates that laying down one's life for friends is paramount.
- The podcast discusses how hope can exist even amidst suffering, grounded in faith and God's promises.
Transcript
Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to be here with our friend of the podcast, Dick Foth, on another session of Back Channel with Foeth.
Speaker A:And then we're going to jump into our interview with Kirby Kelly on the fabric of hope.
Speaker A:Dick, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker B:There you are.
Speaker B:One more time.
Speaker B:Here I am.
Speaker B:One more time.
Speaker A:One more time.
Speaker A:Dick, got two questions for you.
Speaker A:The first one is this.
Speaker A:How much effort do you put into cultivating a friendship?
Speaker B:A ton.
Speaker B:There are three biblical passages that help me with this.
Speaker B:And I don't know that I've always thought this way.
Speaker B:I think more recently as I've aged, I've distilled this.
Speaker B:But we look at the creation story and it's all good.
Speaker B:It's all good.
Speaker B:And you get into Genesis 2 and says, not good, that man should be alone.
Speaker B:And I don't think he's just talking about a marriage partner, he is talking about a helper.
Speaker B:But one thing we know, both experientially and from science, whatever neuroscience, any kind, is that we don't do well alone.
Speaker B:I think it was Paul Tillich, theologian, years ago, that said we have a word in English for being alone without choice.
Speaker B:It's called loneliness.
Speaker B:And being alone with choice is called solitude.
Speaker B:One, one brings glory and one brings devastation.
Speaker B:If you're, if, if you do something that socially is not acceptable and hurts people, they send you to prison.
Speaker B:And if you continue to do it there, they put you in this place called solitary and deprive you of relationship and sometimes food and light, depending on what kind of prison it.
Speaker B:But that, I think is not good for man to be alone.
Speaker B:That the whole rest of the biblical canon responds to that idea that, you know, that may be heresy, but it's my heresy.
Speaker B:And then, and then you get to mark three.
Speaker B: s ago, when I went to D.C. in: Speaker B:I had lunch with the chaplain of the Senate, Richard Halverson, who back in the day, he was sort of Mr. Presbyterian, he was chair of World vision and all this.
Speaker B:And I, in our conversation, I just asked him what, you know, what part of scripture really has touched you?
Speaker B:Something like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And he said Mark 4.
Speaker B:I mean, instantly he said that when Jesus called people who desire he desired, that's what it says, Mark 4.
Speaker B:13 to the mountain.
Speaker B:And he appointed 12 to be with him.
Speaker B:And it says that he appointed 12 to be with him to preach the good news and to cast out demons.
Speaker B:And I think man that Preaching and that, setting people free, you know, liberation for, you know, that's where the action is.
Speaker B:But at the heart of it is this four letter preposition in English with.
Speaker B:And he said that preposition.
Speaker B:Understanding it that way changed my life.
Speaker B:That I wasn't working for him, I was working with him.
Speaker B:I had a long time friend who was parents with or was friends with my parents.
Speaker B:My parents age Halleno Lehman, who went to what they used to call the Gold coast in West Africa, Ghana, and they translated scripture for tribal people up north.
Speaker B:They were 30 some years there.
Speaker B:I think it's the Dogbani tribe.
Speaker B:And he, and he said to me one day, he said, dick, it was a tremendous day in my life in Africa just working my head off, which, which fits this whole compassion fatigue and all of that that we've talked about before.
Speaker B:He says, a great day.
Speaker B:When I realized that I was not working for Jesus, I was working with him.
Speaker B:And Richard Halverson said I would get up every morning and just look out over the city and say, Jesus, what is it you're doing today?
Speaker B:Can I come and do it with you?
Speaker B:So coming back to cultivating friendship very quickly is that by the time you get to the end of Jesus earthly ministry, the night before the crucifixion, he has this talk with the disciples.
Speaker B:And in John 15, his is sort of a distilled farewell address.
Speaker B:And in there he says, no greater love has anyone than this than a person has than to lay down one's life for one's spouse.
Speaker B:And it doesn't say that.
Speaker B:Or one's kids, doesn't say that.
Speaker B:What it says is to lay down one's life for one's friend.
Speaker B:And I read that, I don't know how many times I've read that over the years, but some years back I read that and said, wow.
Speaker B:Because I always thought friendship, which is what the question is about, was sort of a watered down marital love.
Speaker B:You know, marriage is really the pinnacle.
Speaker B:But that's not what he's saying.
Speaker B:Yeah, because there's, there's something about that.
Speaker B:And to me I see Jesus on the cross.
Speaker B:You got the two thieves on either side of him.
Speaker B:And you know, I suppose both of them were cussing him at one point and then one of them said, no, you know, remember me when you come to your place.
Speaker B:And he.
Speaker B:And essentially this is the fourth paraphrase.
Speaker B:Jesus says, I'll do more than that.
Speaker B:Why don't you come with me?
Speaker B:And this day you'll be with me in Paradigm.
Speaker B:And so When.
Speaker B:When I.
Speaker B:Today, when I think of friendship, I see friendship as the main track of the kingdom of God.
Speaker A:Yeah, good word.
Speaker A:Good word, Dick.
Speaker A:That was a great answer to.
Speaker A:A great answer to that question.
Speaker A:I go, I need to keep on point, so I'll ask the next question, not the questions I have.
Speaker A:So do you pick your friends or do your friends pick you?
Speaker B:My answer to that question is yes.
Speaker B:More realistically, I think friends happen.
Speaker B:And by that I mean, you know, first of all, I think in our lifetimes, we can only have a handful of really close friends.
Speaker B:And I think when Jesus says, where two or three are gathered together, he's saying something profound about the possibility of friendship.
Speaker B:When that symphonic thing happens with two or three.
Speaker B:And as a Western capitalist, I say, well, man, if two or three is good, then eight would be fantastic.
Speaker B:If we get to 137, it'd be, you know, probably Jesus would return.
Speaker B:But this idea of sometimes we build friendships by affinity, that we like to do the same kinds of things or we come from the same roots or whatever it is, and sometimes we do it by difference.
Speaker B:I really cherish the friends who are very different than I, and I cherish the ones with whom I have a lot of affinity.
Speaker B:But when you look at the range of Jesus conversations with people in the Gospels, it's just a profound thing.
Speaker B:I have a friend who's now with the Lord.
Speaker B:Years.
Speaker B:For years, was a pastor.
Speaker B:He was from Texas.
Speaker B:I'm from California.
Speaker B:He was a great musician.
Speaker B:I love great musician.
Speaker B:And one day he said, dick, be sure you don't just hang out with people who are just like you, because what can they add to your life?
Speaker B:And so I think this idea of building friendships, and I think the Lord helps us with this.
Speaker B:Well, I know he does.
Speaker B:To connect with people sometimes who are very different than we are, but on the other hand, connect with people for whom we don't have to rehearse our whole histories because we already know each other's histories just because we came from the same spot, sort of.
Speaker B:I would say this about it.
Speaker B:To be a friend is more important than to find a friend.
Speaker B:And friendship is the.
Speaker B:Is the.
Speaker B:And we already spoke to this a little bit.
Speaker B:I think friendship is the engine from which a lot of good things happen.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's very much the kingdom and the.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The idea of the kingdom of God is together.
Speaker B:The idea of the kingdom of darkness is apart.
Speaker A:Yeah, Good word.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:Those were.
Speaker A:We could have did a whole podcast on those two.
Speaker A:Those two questions, but, well, let's do it.
Speaker A:Yeah, we'll do it.
Speaker A:Let' swing back on that one for sure.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Well, we're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Kirby Kelly on the Fabric of Hope.
Speaker A:Well, there's no time better than not to get started.
Speaker A:So here we go.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to be with return guest of the podcast, Kirby.
Speaker A:Welcome back.
Speaker C:Thanks for having me back.
Speaker C:I'm excited to pour into everybody and to just dive into all things hopefully.
Speaker A:All right, looking forward to it today.
Speaker A:Kirby, for those who didn't have the opportunity to listen to our first episode we did together, would you go ahead and share a little bit about yourself and then we're going to jump into this fabric of hope.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Well, hello to everybody, whether you're new here or you remember me from last time I was on.
Speaker C:My name is Kirby Kelly.
Speaker C:I am a preacher, speaker, whatever you want to call me, who lives in Dallas, Texas.
Speaker C:And I love Jesus.
Speaker C:I love just making his name known, whether that be on stages at conferences and events, whether.
Speaker C:Whether that is online, on social media.
Speaker C:I have a podcast called Bought and Beloved where I just dive into theology.
Speaker C:And really my heart is to equip people to know the truth and through that, know God, love God more.
Speaker C:And I'm in a season of life right now where there has just been a lot of change, a lot of transition for the better.
Speaker C:And maybe you're listening today and you're like, I'm in a seasons season of change and transition right now, and it feels like it's for the worse.
Speaker C:And I've been there.
Speaker C:I was literally just recently there of being in a season of lament and grief and suffering and really just asking God the hard questions.
Speaker C:But even in that place, he met me with so much grace, so much joy, a lot of unexpected peace and hope.
Speaker C:And it's really beautiful to be stepping into this season of life.
Speaker C:I'm pregnant.
Speaker C:My baby girl is due in April.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker C:And two labors of love are actually coming in April.
Speaker C:So first is my baby, late April, but then early April, pushing out my.
Speaker C:My other labor of love, my new book, the Fabric of Hope.
Speaker C:So I'm really excited to just dive into that with you today, and I hope it encourages everybody who's listening.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:And really looking forward to it.
Speaker A:So, fabric of hope.
Speaker A:So what are some reasons you've written this book and for the readers today?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:I think the main reason why I wrote this book is, like I said, I was previously in a season that was just completely marked by suffering, loss, change, lament.
Speaker C:And whether you're a Christian or not, I think that we've all gone through a season before, or maybe we're in one right now where it feels like our whole world has just been turned upside down.
Speaker C:Whether it's been like an overnight thing or even an impending and expensive expected thing.
Speaker C: And for me, in, in: Speaker C:My mom passed away.
Speaker C:So as I was actually coming out with my first book, you can't be Free, which we talked about last time when I was on here, my mom, who suffered with addiction for the majority of my life, ended up passing away unexpectedly, traumatically, out of nowhere.
Speaker C:And in that season specifically for me, it was very interesting because as much as it was one of the most gut wrenching, heart shattering, world changing events I've ever really had to walk through and navigate, something that was so different about navigating that season was the fact that my hope was in Jesus.
Speaker C:And I say that because when I was 10 years old, I also lost my dad to addiction.
Speaker C:So my dad was an alcoholic.
Speaker C:He died when I was 10.
Speaker C:And I grieved without hope, went through suffering without hope, Lament, like really brought these questions to God, but with no expectation or hope that he could ever redeem it or, or bring something good from it.
Speaker C:But after getting saved when I was 14 and navigating suffering even as a Christian, even after I got saved, because how many of us know that even though God is good and he's involved in our lives, life still happens and suffering still coexists with a good God?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:When my mom died, it was one of those things that as I was navigating the grief of that, I, I realized, wait, as much as I'm, I'm grieved by this loss and going through this tough season, I still have this hope in Christ that gives me peace, that, that, that promotes my faith rather than robs me of it.
Speaker C:And I think just with, with everything that people have gone through in the last, like, what, five, six years, even with the pandemic and just all the dissension going on in, in politics or, I mean, look around the world, like so much stuff happening even in the, in the, you know, prospective countries that the people who are tuning into this episode live in, I mean, Nigeria, like the Middle east, like, there's so much going on where it can be really hard to hold on to hope and the goodness of God.
Speaker C:But having gone through a season recently where I've had to wrestle with those things, but come to the conclusion of God can actively redeem our stories right when we are in the middle of it.
Speaker C:I knew that this was a, a story that God allowed me to walk through and write at the same time, which was interesting.
Speaker C:And so that's where the, the birth of the fabric of hope came from.
Speaker C:And my hope is that it really helps people to not just slap a, you know, God is good band aid over their situation and act like things don't hurt, but to be able to process and, and hold maybe even the tension of this is really hard.
Speaker C:But God is still really good at the same time and have that confident hope in him.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, and, and that next question for you.
Speaker A:So you write, you share and write about this healing process.
Speaker A:How do you balance that with writing and sharing about it but not continuing to reopen a wound that or a trauma or something that's happened in the past?
Speaker A:Is that a fair question?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think that's a very fair question because I think with the metaphor that you're talking about with wounds, I think that some of us have scabs and some of us have wounds where it's like, it is, it is a fresh thing that we are maybe visiting right now.
Speaker C:Where it's like when a scab peels off, it's still bleeding, it's still fleshy under there.
Speaker C:It's still in need of tending and healing.
Speaker C:And for some of us, that's the season that we're in where it is a scab and it feels like you just keep knocking it against something and it's like this hurts and it hurts and it feels so prolonged and it's not able to heal.
Speaker C:So maybe that's where some of the people are today.
Speaker C:I know for me, when I was writing the book that that was where I was at, right.
Speaker C:It was a frame fresh.
Speaker C:It was a fresh wound, like an open wound that was kind of scabbing over.
Speaker C:But it was a constant thing.
Speaker C:It wasn't a healed up thing at that moment, but God was actively healing as I was processing, as I was writing and processing my grief when, when writing this book.
Speaker C:Now I know that there are other things that as I was writing this book that's, you know, the grief of my mom isn't the only story I touch on in here, but my whole life and I feel like a lot of people can relate to this.
Speaker C:It's like when I look back, it's like, dang, I do a lot like, like life really chucked a couple lemons at my face.
Speaker C:You know what I mean, and those wounds and those bruises, they exist.
Speaker C:They exist.
Speaker C:If we were to look at, like, the tapestry of my life, like, there are clear places where it's like this has been torn and this has been tattered and this area was frayed, but God has gone in like a.
Speaker C:Like a weaver and has sewn these things together to be mended together.
Speaker C:So I think there were some aspects to writing the book where there were wounds that were healed, where it was easy to revisit those things and be like, wow, now that I'm on the other side of it, with time comes perspective of what.
Speaker C:Where God was then, but also what good came from it now.
Speaker C:But when I.
Speaker C:And from that perspective of looking at the old wounds that were healed, I was able, as I was writing this book and presently processing with God just his.
Speaker C:His nature of healing and redemption and working all things for good, to look at the scars and the scabs in my own life that were present at that time and have that same hope and expectancy for it that, well, if he.
Speaker C:If he wove those things together, then like a great physician, if he went in and he stitched those things up, then.
Speaker C:Then I can have hope for today that he will do that now, even with.
Speaker C: , because she passed away May: Speaker C:So that anniversary is coming up soon.
Speaker C:I know even three years removed, it still hurts.
Speaker C:It's still tender.
Speaker C:It is still.
Speaker C:It is still a place that every now and again, you know, the grief will come up, the pain will come up.
Speaker C:But that doesn't mean that God hasn't met me even now, years later, and is still tending to that place that is still tender.
Speaker C:Like, some wounds can.
Speaker C:Can heal quickly, but other times they're very tender.
Speaker C:And God is.
Speaker C:Is gentle enough and gracious enough to walk with us through the whole journey, not just slap a band aid on it and not just rush us in our healing process, but walks with us and gives us perspective based on his past patterns of faithfulness to be able to believe that he'll do that again here.
Speaker A:Yeah, good word.
Speaker A:Good word.
Speaker A:And you mentioned a few of the metaphors you.
Speaker A:You share fabric, lemons, blankets, banners throughout the book.
Speaker A:So how did those metaphors, how have they become to represent hope for you?
Speaker C:Yeah, well, when I think about even just the title of the book, it's literally called the Fabric of Hope.
Speaker C:And as I was writing this and just thinking about my life and the.
Speaker C:The uniqueness of each season of life that I've gone through.
Speaker C:And I'm sure that we can think about that in our own specific lives.
Speaker C:Seasons, different sufferings, different rejoicing and celebrations that we've walked through.
Speaker C:I think the.
Speaker C:The idea of, like, a tapestry or a quilt really is such a perfect picture because it's all these, like, random little patches with different colors and different patterns to them that are.
Speaker C:That are woven together to make something beautiful.
Speaker C:And I specifically talk about, towards the beginning of the book, this idea of God being our blanket, but also our banner.
Speaker C:And I think that that's the thing about fabric, is it's so versatile.
Speaker C:It's so versatile.
Speaker C:And when I think about a blanket starting there, I think about the fact that it is something that is comforting.
Speaker C:Like, when I was little, something that I would always say is when I was, like, really little and I probably only could speak, like, five sentences or whatever, I would always.
Speaker C:My nighttime routine was.
Speaker C:I would go up to my parents, and I would say, I want my binky, my blankie, my bunny.
Speaker C:Like, those were.
Speaker C:As long as I had my binky, my blankie, and my bunny, it was gonna be a good night of sleep.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Like, yeah.
Speaker C:I didn't have to be afraid of the dark.
Speaker C:I didn't have to worry about.
Speaker C:Those things were comforting.
Speaker C:And I think in the same way, God is like a blanket to us in the sense that on those, like, long, dark, cold nights or seasons where we need that comfort, where we need that security, he covers us.
Speaker C:Like, he cloaks over us and surrounds us.
Speaker C:And growing up, my.
Speaker C:My comforter was a quilt.
Speaker C:That's an even more perfect picture of that was something that brought me comfort and security when I was afraid of the dark or thought that, you know, my dolls would come to life, like, Toy Story.
Speaker C:That kind of freaked me out.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Like, all these things, but.
Speaker C:But we have real things that go on in our life where it feels like the.
Speaker C:The day is just not around the corner and the night is long, or our hearts are broken, and we just feel dead and cold inside.
Speaker C:And God, in his kindness and shows up to comfort us in those moments.
Speaker C:But in the same way, he is also a banner.
Speaker C:Not just a blanket, but a banner.
Speaker C:And when we look in Scripture, specifically, I think, to the Old Testament, of what banners meant and what they represented, they were these things that were.
Speaker C:That were put up by the people of God specifically to testify of this is who our God is.
Speaker C:Like, they would walk into battle with these banners, testifying.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Like, we are stepping into battle.
Speaker C:But it is our God who is leading us.
Speaker C:It is our God who goes before us.
Speaker C:He's the one who called us into this territory.
Speaker C:And they were able to find confidence in him in whatever situation they were stepping into.
Speaker C:Even when they won, when there were victories, they would set up banners as these testaments of look at what God has done in this place.
Speaker C:Like, yes, we went on the battlefield, yes, we fought.
Speaker C:Yes, we were valiant in our efforts, in everything we did.
Speaker C:But whose battle was it at the end of the day?
Speaker C:The Lord's.
Speaker C:He came through.
Speaker C:He brought the victory.
Speaker C:So in the same sense that there are seasons that we go through where we just need the comfort of God.
Speaker C:I know and believe that there will be seasons that he calls us to step out boldly and we will have that confidence to go through battle or to walk through territory that he has called us to walk into with confidence that, you know, my God is the one who writes this story.
Speaker C:My God is the one who brings the victory.
Speaker C:My God is the one who brings the resolution.
Speaker C:And I'm going to testify to that so that everyone else can see that.
Speaker C:So that's another big metaphor that I weave throughout the whole book.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I love the word pictures.
Speaker A:They help me for sure.
Speaker A:So as a child of parents who struggle with addiction, how did those early experiences shape your view of God and hope and healing from all that?
Speaker A:You growing up in a family that was struggling with addiction?
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, I think anybody who, if they relate to that in any way, have grown up in a family situation where, whether it was addiction or just chaos, chaos in general.
Speaker C:Where like you as the child felt like you were an environment where it was just not safe for you or controlled for you as much as we can be in control.
Speaker C:I mean, it's really easy to project that on God.
Speaker C:It's really easy to wonder, well, if my parents aren't fully present, fully able to take care of me, fall on.
Speaker C:Their promises are broken people.
Speaker C:And this is, this is young Kirby.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Who does not have an informed and foundational theology.
Speaker C:It's really easy to.
Speaker C:To make your own.
Speaker C:To make your own theology and to draw those assumptions about.
Speaker C:Well, if this is who they are and they're not able to resolve these things, then is this who God is?
Speaker C:Because he's not resolving these things.
Speaker C:Like, I remember praying and praying and praying.
Speaker C:God, will you just heal my dad?
Speaker C:Would you free him from his addiction?
Speaker C:Would you, you know, mend my parents marriage back together after they divorced?
Speaker C:You know, God, would you, would you make Time for me to be able to see my dad because we moved like states away.
Speaker C:And even when my mom relapsed, God again, I have to go through this again with, with a, with my second parent after losing my first.
Speaker C:I mean, it's really hard to grow up in any environment where there is chaos.
Speaker C:And it's easy to put and shift that blame on a God who is good, who is in control, who does have all authority and all power.
Speaker C:And that's something that we really have to wrestle with and reconcile not just as Christians, especially as Christians, but as people.
Speaker C:That's why many people don't trust the Lord.
Speaker C:But what I've come to realize and what I came to learn after I got saved was that just because life isn't fair doesn't mean that God isn't fair.
Speaker C:And just because life can be bad doesn't mean that God is not still good.
Speaker C:When we confuse and begin to associate the goodness of God with how our circumstances are going, understanding the nuances of a broken world, his sovereignty and, and the also coexistence of man's free will, humanity's free will, as I began to really dive into that, and especially I think of the story of Joseph, even how there were so many things that happened to him that I think anybody would be like, this is not a favorable situation.
Speaker C:To be sold into slavery by your brothers, to be accused of assault when you were a completely, you know, debt free man, you hadn't done anything wrong to be forgotten about in a prison.
Speaker C:I mean, all those things, I could see any person being like, yeah, God isn't fair, God isn't good.
Speaker C: ers, he tells them in Genesis: Speaker C:God intended for good.
Speaker C:Not just for him, but for the good of nations like the people around him.
Speaker C:It was for a greater good than he realized.
Speaker C:And there were so many lessons intimately in relationship with God, but also for his own character in those places that God allowed those things to happen.
Speaker C:But God was also weaving in redemption in those places.
Speaker C:And I think that's what I've had to learn growing up in such an unstable environment where it was like, God, why did you allow these things?
Speaker C:I, I have been able to surrender the.
Speaker C:Not getting the answer to why of why God, Why did you allow these things to happen?
Speaker C:Because the Greater answer that I've been able to experience is, who God?
Speaker C:Who are you?
Speaker C:Who are you in this?
Speaker C:Who are you that you can bring about good in this situation?
Speaker C:And as I've studied the Scriptures, not just Joseph's story, but the whole meta narrative of the Bible, it is all about God redeeming his people unto himself.
Speaker C:And if it's true, time and time again within these people of the Bible, who in their laments and in their praises are tethered to God in every season and situation, they return to Him.
Speaker C:He always worked it out.
Speaker C:Of course we would all love a perfect life of no suffering.
Speaker C:But is that the reality?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker C:We were promised suffering in this life, pain in this life, because we live in a broken world where there are other broken people, other broken systems, other broken countries, nations, whatever you want to say, family members, friends, and they affect us.
Speaker C:It's not some of it is our own doing because we're sinful, but we also receive the effects of other people's sin.
Speaker C:And that is unfortunate.
Speaker C:But God, but Jesus, not only does he redeem us from our sin, sin and from our shame, but he also brings redemption to our sorrow and our suffering.
Speaker C:And I think having that understanding of the cross being that fourfold in a way or twofold, the sin and suffering, or the sin and shame aspect and the suffering and sorrow aspect, that there is this hope for a new heaven and earth one day, but also hope for today that God can do something good.
Speaker C:That completely shifted everything for me.
Speaker C:So I can't give everybody the answer why God allowed everything to happen in their life, but I want to point people to the who can redeem everything in your life, and that's Jesus.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I say frequently, you know, I, I don't provide healing, but I'll walk with you towards the one who does.
Speaker C:Amen.
Speaker A:And I think that is definitely what you're.
Speaker A:What you're sharing.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker A:You show you share that hope is not naive optimism, but it's a posture rooted in God's promises.
Speaker A:And then you have four P's, So another alliteration.
Speaker A:I love the metaphors.
Speaker A:I love the alliterations.
Speaker A:So personhood, promises, patterns and presence.
Speaker A:Could you just share maybe about one or two of those?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:I'll just briefly describe them all because I go into greater depth in the book.
Speaker C:So when I talk about hope and the idea of hope, I think a lot of us use the word hope in these very, like, frivolous situations where it's like, I hope I get a good parking spot, or, you know, I hope they bump me up to a better seat, you know, in business class.
Speaker C:That would be great.
Speaker C:Crunched all the way back in economy or whatever, you know, I hope I win the lottery.
Speaker C:Like we.
Speaker C:We throw our hope into these things that feel like wishful thinking at the end of the day.
Speaker C:But biblical hope is different.
Speaker C:Biblical hope is rooted in this confident expectation based on who got is.
Speaker C:And I break that down in the book with these four P's, which, like you said, are his promises, his patterns, his presence, and his personhood.
Speaker C:What do I mean?
Speaker C:We need to put our hope first in the promises of God.
Speaker C:What has he spoken in His Word?
Speaker C:What has he guaranteed to his people?
Speaker C:Even when circumstances feel uncertain, we can put our hope in the promises that God has made.
Speaker C:We can also put our hope in the patterns of God.
Speaker C:And I kind of spoke to this, that when we look at the Bible, or at least for me as a Christian who's been walking with the Lord Since I was 14, I'm 28, about to be 29, I look back on my life and it's.
Speaker C:I see this consistent pattern of God's faithfulness of God stepping in and healing and redeeming everything that I have yielded to him, everything that I have brought and returned to Him.
Speaker C:And we can trust in God's patterns of faithfulness.
Speaker C:He's faithful all throughout Scripture.
Speaker C:He consists, consistently works in our lives within the waiting, redemption, resurrection, restoration, everything.
Speaker C:We can also hope in God's presence.
Speaker C:And what I mean by this is that the nearness of God is with us in every season.
Speaker C:Does that mean that he is going to work out everything in the way that we expect?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Or on the timeline that we have?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:But we can hope and believe, and this is hinged on the promises of God, is that his presence is that He.
Speaker C:He is omnipresent.
Speaker C:He's everywhere.
Speaker C:But especially to the Christian, he abides within us.
Speaker C:We have the Holy Spirit.
Speaker C:We have his presence around us.
Speaker C:Not just, you know, not just this thing that it's like he's far off and he's busy somewhere else.
Speaker C:He's with us.
Speaker C:And then lastly, the personhood of God.
Speaker C:And what I mean by this is the characteristics, the nature of who God is.
Speaker C:Being faithful, being present, being compassionate, being sovereign, being just, being trustworthy, being merciful.
Speaker C:There are so many attributes to who God is.
Speaker C:And we can believe and have hope that he will be consistent to uphold his character even when our situations are changing, he will still be merciful.
Speaker C:He will still be kind, he will still be Compassionate and all these things and more.
Speaker C:Again, it might not look like, or it might not come to fruition in the way you expect or on the timeline you expect.
Speaker C:But we can know that God is still true to who he is in every season and situation.
Speaker C:So Those are the four Ps, or four pillars really, that we can rest our hope on.
Speaker C:Not in other people, not in this world, not even ourselves.
Speaker C:We get to put our biblical hope in God's promises, patterns, presence, and personhood.
Speaker A:Yeah, I got two more questions for you.
Speaker A:I have a lot of questions for you, but I'm going to limit it down to two.
Speaker A:So limit it down to two.
Speaker A:This idea of restitching and repairing our lives is a tapestry.
Speaker A:And my wife's a quoter.
Speaker A:And, you know, that's.
Speaker A:I think that's where this all gels with me.
Speaker A:But so how can believers, with that understanding of that, how do they help them understand or help me understand how our stories and scars need to be seen in a way that they can be redeemed, that they're not?
Speaker A:Because you talk about a tapestry that's putting something together for something to be beautiful.
Speaker A:So can you share about that?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:I think it's easy to look at certain seasons of our life or painful parts of our story and to think that kind of like fabric, if anyone has ever worked with fabric before and you're designing something, you're going to cut some parts out and it's like, okay, well, these are just scraps.
Speaker C:Like, I'm not going to use these.
Speaker C:I'm just going to recycle them.
Speaker C:Or.
Speaker C:Or not even recycle them.
Speaker C:Just throw them in the bin.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I'm not going to use them anymore.
Speaker C:I'm just going to chuck them to the side because really, what use is there in this place?
Speaker C:And I think for some of us, we've done that with certain seasons of our life or stories or traumas that we've gone through of what good could really come from this?
Speaker C:What redemption could God actually bring from this place?
Speaker C:What sort of resolution or reconciliation?
Speaker C:I mean, God is good and God is big and he can do anything, but maybe not with this.
Speaker C:And to that, I would really challenge the people who are listening today to revisit those areas.
Speaker C:And I know that can be very painful.
Speaker C:But if that is still a place that feels like a scar and not a healed wound, maybe that that's because you haven't given that scrap to God to actually weave into your story, to actually to place that as part of a bigger design.
Speaker C:For what he wants to do in your life, integrate within your own ministry, use for the kingdom and building others up.
Speaker C:I mean, there is so much that can be done.
Speaker C:When we give even the scraps that we have just completely tossed to the side to God, it's easy to bring God our strength, strengths.
Speaker C:It's easy to bring God the things that we've already kind of walked through.
Speaker C:It's easy to bring God even into the picture of what we're going through today.
Speaker C:But maybe there are things in your past that you have just thrown to the side or completely have even forgotten about.
Speaker C:And your homework today could even be to just sit with the Lord and ask him, God, are there unresolved parts in my life?
Speaker C:Are there still open wounds that I have either avoided or pretended like didn't bother me anymore or have completely forgotten about that are actually trickling into my life and my relationships and my relationship with you, Lord, today that you want to restitch and refashion and repurpose to be a part of the greater story of redemption that you want for my life.
Speaker C:So that's what I would say to that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Good word, good word, Last question for you.
Speaker A:And then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.
Speaker A:Maybe someone listening in and they're a friend, and to someone that's walking through a very difficult season and they're grieving, maybe that friend is grieving.
Speaker A:But then they themselves, maybe they're in a joyful and they're rejoicing in their situation.
Speaker A:How can they walk that tension?
Speaker A:How do we walk with people that are grieving at the same time?
Speaker A:Maybe we're not grieving and we're actually on a place where we're rejoicing in what God's doing in our life.
Speaker A:Can you share about that?
Speaker A:And then I'll ask you to pray?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:It makes me think of the scripture where we are instructed to rejoice with those who rejoice, but also weep with those who weep.
Speaker C:And I think Jesus is the perfect picture of that.
Speaker C:I think of Mary and Martha with the death of their brother Lazarus.
Speaker C:And it's really easy to hear that story and to automatically jump to the end of it.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Which is, you know, Lazarus come out and he does, and it's like, oh, my gosh, this is crazy.
Speaker C:Like, literally a dead man walking.
Speaker C:That's actually miraculous.
Speaker C:That's actually insane.
Speaker C:We don't see that very often.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But I think about that moment where they cry out to Jesus, they send a message to him, you know, our Brother is sick.
Speaker C:Jesus loves this guy.
Speaker C:Like, this is his friend.
Speaker C:These are his friends.
Speaker C:And he shows up four days later, and he walks into a situation not where they're like, oh, yay, Jesus, you're finally here.
Speaker C:He's dead, but it's okay.
Speaker C:No, like, they are in their grief.
Speaker C:It's interesting because I look at Martha, and Martha, she runs to Jesus.
Speaker C:You know, she's grieving, she's.
Speaker C:She's lamenting, but she also is holding onto this hope of the truth of who Jesus is as the resurrection and the life.
Speaker C:And Jesus reminds her of.
Speaker C:Of this.
Speaker C:Jesus reminds her, I'm the resurrection and the life.
Speaker C:You believe this?
Speaker C:And she's like, yes, I believe this.
Speaker C:But with Mary, this is what I find interesting.
Speaker C:With Mary, the one who, you know, was sitting at Jesus's feet eagerly learning, the one who, who.
Speaker C:Who washed his feet even does not even walk out to greet Jesus.
Speaker C:She doesn't go and seek after him, even though he's there.
Speaker C:Martha is sent by Jesus to go to Mary and she tells him, you know, he's here.
Speaker C:And then finally when she comes out to him, she's like, where were you?
Speaker C:Where were you?
Speaker C:I mean, this woman, she's distraught.
Speaker C:And what does Jesus do?
Speaker C:He doesn't meet her with, okay, well, the same message that I gave to Martha, you know, like this big theological lesson of I am the resurrection and the life.
Speaker C:He just weeps with her.
Speaker C:He just meets her with tears.
Speaker C:And I think that when.
Speaker C:When we have friends who go through or family members or congregants or whoever it is in our life that's going through really tough situations, I think we can really learn from Jesus in this situation, that there is a time for us to remind people, hey, this is the truth of who Jesus is.
Speaker C:That.
Speaker C:That he's the resurrection and the life that he can bring about good, that we can hope in him.
Speaker C:There is a time where people are ready and able and willing to receive that encouragement of hope, and they need that.
Speaker C:But there is also a time, and we need to be very discerning and empathetic to this or sympathetic to this, that there are people who just need to be met with.
Speaker C:This sucks.
Speaker C:This sucks.
Speaker C:I'm sorry you're going through this.
Speaker C:Can I just be here with you and weep with you and just allow my own presence of being here to just show you that this is the body as well, that we just sit with one another in our tears, even though we know and Jesus knew that restoration was coming, right?
Speaker C:Like, literally a dead man was about to be walking.
Speaker C:We have this hope that, well, God can do something good, but sometimes we need to take that time to just lament.
Speaker C:Because the thing about lamenting and praise is that both tether us back to God.
Speaker C:And there's a time to be honest and real and raw about what we are going through.
Speaker C:And I think we as, as communities need to make that space for people to wrestle with questions, to.
Speaker C:To cry out their whys and their where were yous and to meet them with presence and tears, but also truth and.
Speaker C:And both of those take time.
Speaker C:So I would just.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:That's my encouragement to people is.
Speaker C:I think Jesus beautifully models that hope and redemption ended for both of those women with.
Speaker C:With Lazarus.
Speaker C:But there were different approaches.
Speaker C:There was a different atmosphere with both of those women, and he met them in those places.
Speaker C:And we need to cultivate those places and spaces where still, at the end of the day, we're able to lead people to the hope and healing that is found in Christ, whether that be through the encouragement and truth and theology right off the bat or just the ministry of time and tears.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:In that relationship, Kirby, it's always a joy to spend time with you.
Speaker A:You got the joy of the Lord in you, and you're passionate about the message.
Speaker A:You're shar and excited for fabric of hope to be out there and also the joy that's coming into your life and that baby.
Speaker A:So will you pray for us and we'll close it out in prayer?
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Lord, I just want to thank you today for the redemptive work that you have done on the cross.
Speaker C:First and foremost, that because you.
Speaker C:You came, you lived a perfect life, you died the death that we deserved, and you rose three days later, that we get to have this hope that not only can we be redeemed and reconciled unto you out of our sin and out of our shame, into freedom and justification before you, but that you also, being a man of sorrows who is well acquainted with grief, understand the grief, the loss, the changes, the hardships, the struggles, the questions that we also wrestle with and go through, and yet you still bring redemption and reconciliation and even revival to those areas of our lives.
Speaker C:And I pray that whoever is listening today, God, if they feel just let down in any way, if they feel discouraged, if they're wrestling with doubt, if they feel like they have unanswered prayers, if they feel like they just can't put their hope in you because they've been disappointed one too many times, I pray, God that you would begin to just minister to them wherever they are whether it's with truth and theology or whether it's tears in time God that even you would begin to minister to the person today who is listening and that they would feel comforted by you and thus moved into a place of confidence in you confident biblical hope in your promises in your patterns in your personhood in your presence that you are still the same God who stitches our stories together who can even rewrite the ending that maybe we have decided for ourselves and bring about something better and something good from the places of our life that were bad and we feel like are less than good.
Speaker C:We trust our ministries unto you our families our friends we trust our lives to you our hearts to you God that you would come in and do the work of the tender tailor and sew and stitch all these things together to be a banner of your glory a fabric of hope that testifies of your goodness and we pray these things in Jesus name name amen.
