Unlocking the Power of Forgiveness: Insights from Dr. David Blankenship
The focus point of this podcast centers on the profound significance of forgiveness, as highlighted in my conversation with Dr. David Blankenship. We explore the complexities surrounding the act of forgiveness, exploring how the absence of forgiveness can manifest as a detrimental hindrance in individuals' lives. Dr. Blankenship, with his extensive experience in clinical counseling, articulates the vital process of forgiveness and its transformative potential, not only on an emotional level but also in terms of spiritual and physical well-being. This episode serves as an invitation to reflect on our own experiences with unforgiveness and to consider the practical steps we can take towards healing and liberation. Ultimately, we aim to provide listeners with insights that are not merely theoretical, but actionable, fostering a journey towards reconciliation and personal peace.
Takeaways:
- The conversation centered around the significance of forgiveness in overcoming personal struggles and emotional turmoil.
- Dr. David Blankenship emphasized that lack of forgiveness can severely hinder one's mental and emotional well-being.
- Forgiveness is a process that involves both acknowledging the offense and the associated feelings, which is crucial for healing.
- The podcast also highlighted the difference between forgiveness and reconciliation, noting their unique roles in personal growth.
Transcript
Hey there.
Speaker A:Welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Speaker A:This podcast is all about providing clarity, insight and encouragement for life and mission.
Speaker A:And my name is Aaron Sanemier and I get to be your host today.
Speaker A:We get to sit down and have a phenomenal conversation with Dr. David Blankenship on forgiveness.
Speaker A:David serves at Emerge Ministries.
Speaker A:He's the director of clinical services.
Speaker A:David and he just had.
Speaker A:We just had a phenomenal conversation on forgiveness.
Speaker A:He has, you know, he has a lot of, lot of experience working with people and just understanding that that lack of forgiveness can really become a hindrance in people's lives.
Speaker A:And so it's a.
Speaker A:Listeners into the podcast know it's something that a subject that's been dear to my heart.
Speaker A:We've had several interviews whether that was Everett Worthington on.
Speaker A:We discussed forgiveness and then we had the opportunity on this episode to sit down with Dr. David Blankenship and discuss it with him also.
Speaker A:And each and every.
Speaker A:I have conversations around forgiveness.
Speaker A:God really does a work on my heart to ask others for forgiveness.
Speaker A:Areas of life that maybe I'm not moving forward in and how do.
Speaker A:How do I walk in?
Speaker A:Is a person that freely gives forgiveness and what forgiveness means, you know, what it doesn't mean, what it does mean.
Speaker A:And really appreciated his wisdom and insight and it's practical.
Speaker A:It will help you.
Speaker A:It surely helped me also want to ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.
Speaker A:I know that the podcasts I subscribe to are the ones I listen to, the ones that show up on my feed every, every Tuesday.
Speaker A:And I know what I'm going to be listening to throughout the rest of the week and then also continue to send in your questions for back channel with Foeth.
Speaker A:That's where we get to sit down with Dick Foth and learn from him.
Speaker A:Over this last six plus years, it's been a very, very fun time to sit down with Dick and learn from him and then to go on the road and hear how people send in questions, heard the answer to the questions and how much it's meant to them.
Speaker A:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker A:So here.
Speaker A:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.
Speaker A:So excited to be here with a new friend.
Speaker A:Dr. Dave, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:Glad to be here.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Would you go ahead and just share a little bit about yourself?
Speaker A:I shared before I hit record.
Speaker A:Him and I were on another conversation before and then when his face came up, I'm like, oh, this is.
Speaker A:We've gotten to meet before and made this conversation all the More enjoyable for me today.
Speaker A:So, Dr. Dave, will you share a little bit about yourself and then I'm going to start asking you some questions on our topic today.
Speaker B:Of course.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I am a licensed professional counselor.
Speaker B:So I'm a licensed clinician diagnosing treatmental disorders.
Speaker B:I've been doing that for over 20 years.
Speaker B:I've also taught in academia for about seven years in the school of counseling, so training counselors to become counselors.
Speaker B:And then I also have published research in peer reviewed scientific journals on the topics of PTSD as well as diagnostic accuracy.
Speaker B:So I'm currently in the role of director of clinical services for Emerge Counseling Ministries where I am overseeing the clinical department as well as almost 40 clinicians.
Speaker B:So, wow.
Speaker B:I'm thankful for the ministry that I can help support as Emerge.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I'll.
Speaker A:I'll stick to the questions.
Speaker A:I won't.
Speaker A:I'll get off because I could ask you 12 questions on what you just shared, but I won't do that.
Speaker A:So I won't do that to you.
Speaker A:So, genesis story.
Speaker A:Dr. Crosby and I were having a conversation and he shared that you have a passion to help people that are with unforgiveness and in the value of forgiveness.
Speaker A:Will you kind of share the genesis story of that?
Speaker A:Because that's, you know, that's not everybody's passion.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Or everybody that's able to speak into that space.
Speaker A:And he said you need to speak to Dr. Dave about this and have him on the podcast.
Speaker A:So here we are.
Speaker A:So you share about the Genesis story of it.
Speaker B:Oh, of course, yes.
Speaker B:So having over 20 years experience, I've worked with over 10,000 clients.
Speaker B:And that's not to be bragging or say how special I am.
Speaker B:It's just when see that many people in a professional venue, as I do providing counseling services, you tend to see themes.
Speaker B:And so I have these advanced trainings and EMDR and internal family systems and some of these other therapeutic modalities.
Speaker B:But if I had only three techniques that I could use with every client, one of the top ones would be going through a forgiveness process.
Speaker B:There's been many times where I was stuck clinically with the client and we went through a forgiveness process and that was the healing and transformation that they needed.
Speaker B:And so since I did it, then I did it more often.
Speaker B:And I found that a lot of people needed this and this is what was causing their anxiety, their depression, their difficulty sleeping, their relationships, so forth and so on.
Speaker B:And so it is quite a significant thing because it affects you spiritually emotionally, even physically.
Speaker B:And Scripture does back that up as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So forgiveness process.
Speaker A:If somebody is listening and when you.
Speaker A:You share going through a forgiveness process, what would that look like?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So in counseling, I find that what leads to transformation are two things.
Speaker B:Experiential truth, experiencing truth.
Speaker B:And so the experiential therapies, I find, tend to yield greater benefit.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And so for forgiveness, there's a specific protocol that I've adapted from.
Speaker B:I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Neal Anderson, the bondage breaker.
Speaker B:Yes, similar to that.
Speaker B:And it's a process that's experiential.
Speaker B:So there's two secret ingredients that I find.
Speaker B:When I didn't have these two things, it didn't quite yield the benefit for the clients I worked with.
Speaker B:So let me tell you the two secret ingredients.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:One is you have to say this specific process out loud.
Speaker B:And the second one is in the presence of somebody else.
Speaker B:Now, just saying, I forgive somebody or I'm going to let go of it.
Speaker B:There is benefit to that.
Speaker B:But when you are saying out loud in the presence of someone else, I choose to forgive John Smith for doing.
Speaker B:And you name everything that they did, you'll find the Holy Spirit will bring to your mind things maybe that you didn't realize.
Speaker B:Realize that you need to.
Speaker B:It's like a form of confession that you were stating out loud of what they did.
Speaker B:Because it made me feel.
Speaker B:And as you start to talk about how it made you feel, you'll find that certain root issues are coming up themes that.
Speaker B:Of how they made you feel.
Speaker B:Then the last part is, I now choose to let go of the resentment that was caused and not hold on to their offense ever again.
Speaker B:And so that's kind of a protocol.
Speaker B:It's experiential.
Speaker B:I'm saying it out loud, which is one of secret ingredients in the presence of somebody else.
Speaker B:As a clinician, I fill that role and it just unlocks a lot of things and breaks people who are in bondage.
Speaker B:And it's quite significant.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And is that something you've learned then over time?
Speaker A:I mean, because you said you.
Speaker A:Those two.
Speaker A:Those two key components.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So is that a fair question, something you've learned over time?
Speaker B:Absolutely, yes.
Speaker B:So there's been times where I, I would recommend forgiveness and I have my little sheet of the protocol where it's, you know, it's typed up and they would just fill in the blanks with the person and I would give it to them and say, hey, just go home and do this, and they would.
Speaker B:And they come back and there was nothing.
Speaker B:And so I did that a few times when we would run out of time in session or if I wasn't going to see them again.
Speaker B:And it just did not have the same effect.
Speaker B:And so through experience, I found that when you're saying it out loud, because the words we speak can bring life and death.
Speaker B:And so by the words we speak, we're, we're, we're speaking life.
Speaker B:Not only that, but the enemy can't hear our thoughts.
Speaker B:And so if I'm proclaiming something through out loud of speech, that also has some spiritual significance to it.
Speaker B:So that's one.
Speaker B:And then also where two or more are gathered, you know, the Lord is there with us.
Speaker B:So by my presence as a clinician, in the presence of somebody else, it makes it experiential.
Speaker B:It just has a different effect.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:You said something there.
Speaker A:I've, I've done 370 episodes and someone has never said what you just said.
Speaker A:You said that the enemy cannot hear our thoughts or doesn't hear our thoughts.
Speaker A:Could you go a little, could you unpack that a little bit for me?
Speaker B:You know, I wish I had some really deep, significant theological evidence to help support that.
Speaker B:But from what I understand of scripture, from what I understand of working with people, is that I am not convinced, and I could be wrong on this, that the enemy can hear our thoughts.
Speaker B:Now, the enemy can influence our thoughts.
Speaker B:The enemy can influence us.
Speaker B:That can contribute to thinking.
Speaker B:But if I'm having specific thoughts, I'm not convinced that the enemy can hear that.
Speaker B:And so then if I'm going to proclaim something out loud, the enemy is.
Speaker B:There's no mistaking that the enemy is going to hear it.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:It just, it, it popped out when you said it.
Speaker A:And that was, that was worth the podcast listen, just up until now, because I really believe that spoke.
Speaker A:It spoke to me and I'm sure it spoke to somebody else, because I think sometimes we give the enemy abilities and characteristics that he doesn't have and it's.
Speaker A:So anyway, yeah, that popped when you said it.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So how would you define forgiveness?
Speaker A:Or maybe, maybe it's unforgiveness or.
Speaker A:Yeah, either one of those.
Speaker B:Yeah, good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Let me define a few things that are very similar but can be a bit distinct.
Speaker B:So there's resentfulness.
Speaker B:So resentfulness is indignation at some act, remark, or person perceived.
Speaker B:And that's the key.
Speaker B:Perceived to cause injury or insult.
Speaker B:And so then I am resentful towards that person.
Speaker B:And then there's bitterness, feelings of hostility or hate.
Speaker B:And then unforgiveness is just the act of not forgiving.
Speaker B:And unforgiveness can go not only towards other people, but towards ourselves and dare I say, towards God.
Speaker B:Not because God makes mistakes, because we attribute mistakes to God.
Speaker B:God, why did you allow this to happen?
Speaker B:Why didn't you save me or this person from this event?
Speaker B:And so now I have attributed something to God that he has done, regardless of if that's true.
Speaker B:And so because of that, I can have unforgiveness towards God.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And bitterness.
Speaker A:So is that bitterness is.
Speaker A:My assumption would be in my understanding of that presently is that's something that takes some time to develop.
Speaker A:But there is a relationship.
Speaker A:There is a relationship between forgiveness and bitterness, or are they mutually exclusive?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, you know, resentfulness, bitterness, unforgiveness, they can be used interchangeably.
Speaker B:There are some very minute distinctions between them.
Speaker B:But the cure to all of them is forgiveness.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:So, you know, I would say.
Speaker B:I would talk to a client and say, you sound like you're resentful.
Speaker B:I'm not resentful.
Speaker B:I'm bitter.
Speaker B:Well, to you and me that may seem like the same thing, but to them there's some nuanced differences.
Speaker B:And so whether it's resentfulness, bitterness, or just unforgiveness, I know as a clinician, forgiveness is the.
Speaker B:The cure to any of those.
Speaker A:Wow, good word.
Speaker A:And so you mentioned earlier you've worked with over 10,000 patients.
Speaker A:How have you.
Speaker A:Unforgiveness.
Speaker A:How does that in.
Speaker A:Or how does that impact us emotionally and mentally?
Speaker A:You mentioned a little bit earlier about the impacts it can have on anxiety and depression.
Speaker A:And sometimes that can be.
Speaker A:There's those interplays.
Speaker A:But how have you seen unforgiveness impact people mentally and emotionally?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So if I'm bitter and I'm resentful and I'm holding on to events that have happened to me, that's going to affect me in many ways.
Speaker B:A lot of times they'll see it in anger.
Speaker B:And what's really under anger?
Speaker B:You may have heard anger is a secondary emotion, but it's still an emotion.
Speaker B:But what's usually under anger is sadness or some sort of pain.
Speaker B:And so if I have this injury that a wound that I've experienced, it's going to come out in anger, which is really sadness.
Speaker B:That's one way.
Speaker B:A lot of ways that I see it would be anxiety as well.
Speaker B:So anxiety has to do with worrying, it's muscle tension.
Speaker B:And so it's, it's always future focused.
Speaker B:And so if I'm anticipating of running into a person who has, I have perceived, has injured me, then I'm going to have some anxiety with the anticipation when I see them or when I think of them, I'm going to have these bitter feelings or this resentfulness.
Speaker B:And so that's going to cause me this anxiety.
Speaker B:And so since it causes that anger, which underneath that is usually sadness or pain, then you'll see depression with that.
Speaker B:I've worked with ministers and missionaries who came, let's say missionary who came back from the field.
Speaker B:And they were having a lot of anxiety about the anticipation of going back.
Speaker B:And what for this particular client was underneath, that is they were just very bitter and resentful of some things that they've experienced when they were on the field.
Speaker B:And so they didn't recognize that.
Speaker B:They assumed there's something wrong with them or God made a mistake to call them to this field.
Speaker B:But it was actually, it was just a warning sign saying that something needs to be addressed.
Speaker B:And when we addressed it, we found that what was underneath the lack of sleeping, the depressive symptoms, the anxiety, the anger, the bitterness, it was lack of forgiveness.
Speaker B:And it was an experiential process of forgiveness that took just one session.
Speaker B:For some people, it can be as easy as one session and they were set free, praise God.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And so you, you mentioned sometimes if you maybe you're anticipating that anxiety, maybe anticipating seeing somebody and that could.
Speaker A:So would that be like a trigger?
Speaker A:Like if I, I saw somebody that would bring it back or you said that they're getting ready to get on a plane and return to the field and there's anxiety about that.
Speaker A:And is that process, does it trigger it?
Speaker A:I guess the word.
Speaker A:I'm asking, what do you think about triggers there?
Speaker A:There you go.
Speaker A:That might just be a shorter question.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:No, so, you know, triggers are, they're instant.
Speaker B:It's kind of like a reflex.
Speaker B:If I had a rubber band and I put it up close to your eye, like I'm going to flick it, you're going to have a natural reflex.
Speaker B:And so whenever you have this uncontrollable, almost autopilot reactions, emotional reactions, certain thoughts, certain behaviors, that's when I know as a clinician, that's a wounding.
Speaker B:It's usually unconscious.
Speaker B:Just meaning that we're just not aware of it, because if we were aware of it, then we might be able to do something about it.
Speaker B:And what we know, neuroscience of the emotional brain, that that's where a lot of the trauma is, is in the emotional brain, which is in the parts of the brain that we're just not as aware of.
Speaker B:And so that's how I know.
Speaker B:So maybe it would be helpful, Aaron, to talk about how do you know if you have resentfulness, bitterness, and unforgiveness?
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:Because I'll talk to a lot of people and they'll say, I, I'm not, I don't have this.
Speaker B:Well, let me tell you, from a clinician's perspective of what I have gathered of how do you know if you have this?
Speaker B:So when you think about the person or the event that caused the offense, whether that's some sort of insult, attack, crime, whatever it is, what emotions do you have about it?
Speaker B:Do you have anger?
Speaker B:Do you have the resentfulness?
Speaker B:Do you have the bitterness?
Speaker B:Are you holding a grudge?
Speaker B:Are you passive aggressive?
Speaker B:That's a huge one.
Speaker B:Are you vindictive to where you want to get back at them, or if it's towards yourself, do you have shame or guilt?
Speaker B:So when you think about it, what emotions do you have?
Speaker B:If you have any of those examples, that is how you know that you are harboring, unfortunately, unresolved bitterness, resentfulness, and unforgiveness.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And yeah, and it's.
Speaker A:So you, you mentioned that passive aggressive.
Speaker A:So somebody's listening.
Speaker A:I've heard many different definitions and thoughts on passive aggressive.
Speaker A:Could you kind of maybe describe what that looks like or maybe an instance of what being passive aggressive would look like?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So passive aggressive is where you were indirectly communicating a message.
Speaker B:So let's say if I did something to offend my wife, instead of her being more direct and saying, you know, when you said this, it really hurt my feelings.
Speaker B:That would be direct communication, and there's no mistaking of what I did that hurt her.
Speaker B:A passive aggressive statement would be one where if I did something to hurt her, she'll maybe say a comment to me that indirectly is communicating, you hurt me.
Speaker B:Now, from my perspective, all I hear is that she's giving me a passive aggressive statement.
Speaker B:And so now I feel like, well, now you're injuring me because of your statement.
Speaker B:And so it doesn't get to the communication that's direct, that is helpful.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, passive aggressive.
Speaker B:It could be passive aggressive statements could be passive aggressive actions as well.
Speaker B: o' clock and they show up at: Speaker B:That may be an indirect physical action of passive aggressiveness just to stick it to me.
Speaker B:But nothing was said and it's almost an indirect communication.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And then another follow up question.
Speaker A:You mentioned some different characteristics.
Speaker A:When it's further their self, you mentioned that unforgiveness, it could be passive aggressive and you gave a list there.
Speaker A:But then when you got to if this was unforgiveness towards yourself, I think you mentioned shame.
Speaker A:And there was another something that I forget my apology.
Speaker A:Guilt.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Differentiation between those two things.
Speaker A:Could you share just a little bit more about when it's, when it's unforgiveness towards yourself?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's how I.
Speaker B:So when anytime there's shame and guilt, that's how I know that there is a lack of forgiveness towards myself.
Speaker B:I'm holding an offense against myself.
Speaker B:And what's the difference between shame and guilt?
Speaker B:Just to oversimplify, guilt is I did something bad.
Speaker B:Shame is I am bad for what I did and they can at times overlap and feel the same.
Speaker B:Now having guilt and in some aspects, you know, I got to be careful with this one shame, there can be some positive things that come from that.
Speaker B:If I do something to hurt my wife and I have guilt, therefore I, I did something bad, that's a motivation for me then to do something and to, to correct that or to change something within myself.
Speaker B:Now shame, I don't want to take on to where my identity is.
Speaker B:I am bad because that can then create another host of things.
Speaker B:But I know the Bible talks about, scripture talks about having shame and there can be, and I, I want to tiptoe into this, some potential positive shame to where if I feel shame, I feel like, wow, that was really bad.
Speaker B:And I'm feeling like I'm a bad person, which I don't want to take on that identity.
Speaker B:That can lead to repentance, that can lead to change.
Speaker B:I'm careful because most people do take on this shame that is unhealthy, that keeps them stuck.
Speaker B:And I don't want to encourage that by any means.
Speaker A:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker A:I appreciate the, the delineation and the clarification on that.
Speaker A:So somebody's listening in and as you've been sharing, they might be pushing back and saying, hey Dr. Dave, I'm concerned if I forgive somebody, I'm kind of condoning and letting them off from hurting me and they're struggling with that.
Speaker A:What words of wisdom or what words of counsel would you give somebody, it's saying, yeah, Dr. Dave, I'm recognizing.
Speaker A:I have some of the things you've listed, but I want justice, and I want justice, and if I forgive them, I'm letting them off the hook.
Speaker A:Is that a fair question?
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, yeah, That's.
Speaker B:That's one of the hugest barriers, big barriers that come up that keeps people from going through a forgiveness process.
Speaker B:One of my favorite quotes is that bitterness is the poison we drink thinking it hurts the other person.
Speaker B:You know, if I harbor this bitterness and unresent and resentfulness and unforgiveness towards this person, it's like that somehow punishes them when in fact it actually hurts me more than it does them.
Speaker B:So that's why it's the poison we drink thinking it hurts the other person.
Speaker B:So then when I'm working with clients and I'm.
Speaker B:I'm picking up on, there's some benefit for them going through a forgiveness process.
Speaker B:Before I even talk about what forgiveness is, I first talk about what forgiveness is not.
Speaker B:And by talking about what forgiveness is not, I'm overcoming the typical barrier.
Speaker B:So let me share with you some of the typical barriers.
Speaker B:I see one of them that you mentioned, you know, if I forgive somebody, then that means I'm saying what they did is okay.
Speaker B:Well, it depends.
Speaker B:Depends on how you view forgiveness.
Speaker B:Forgiveness is not saying that what they did.
Speaker B:All forgiveness is, is letting go of the offense.
Speaker B:The emotion is always tied to the offense.
Speaker B:If the offense, which was wounding, resulted in bitterness, sadness, lack of sleep, anger, all those things, if I hold the offense, the emotion stays with it.
Speaker B:If I let go of the offense, guess what goes with it.
Speaker B:So then we think if we.
Speaker B:If we forgive, we're saying that it's okay.
Speaker B:That's not what forgiveness is.
Speaker B:Because now I'm making it about them.
Speaker B:If I want to be free from this burden of unforgiveness that's harming me more than it's harming them, regardless of what they deserve, I want to be free from this offense and the emotions tied to it that I'm holding on to, which I don't deserve.
Speaker B:I don't deserve to be burdened by what they did or what maybe happened to me.
Speaker B:So I'm going to choose to let go of the offense because it has nothing to do with me saying it's okay.
Speaker B:So that's one barrier.
Speaker B:Another one is, you probably heard, just forgive and forget.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, if I have experienced abuse from somebody and let's say it's physical abuse, and I will never forget that.
Speaker B:Therefore, now I'm saying I can never forgive.
Speaker B:Because if forgiven forgets the same thing and I'll never forget, that means I can never forgive.
Speaker B:Well, that's not what forgiveness is.
Speaker B:Yes, you always remember it.
Speaker B:However, by letting go of the offense, you're not going to be burdened by what happened to you while you still remember it.
Speaker B:So that's another barrier.
Speaker B:Another one is, well, if I forgive, that means I'm giving in to the other person and they win and I lose.
Speaker B:Now in this is because again, you're putting too much of the focus on them.
Speaker B:It's about your health and how you don't deserve to be burdened by what happened to you.
Speaker B:So forgiving actually lets go of that.
Speaker B:And another one is, well, if I forgive, that means I'm going to be more vulnerable to future hurts.
Speaker B:Actually, the opposite is true.
Speaker B:Since you're in a state of bitterness, unforgiveness, resentfulness, you're already in a state of vulnerability.
Speaker B:So as evidenced by I'm passive aggressive, I'm anger, I'm very walled off and protected.
Speaker B:So by letting go of the offense and choosing, and that's the key, choosing forgiveness, because you don't have to do it by choosing forgiveness, that actually puts you in a position now of strength so that when future offenses come, you're now not going to be compounded upon offense.
Speaker B:Upon offense.
Speaker B:Upon offense.
Speaker B:I'm in a place of strength.
Speaker B:And now if I implement boundaries in my life to where I don't allow, if there's a certain person or individuals that continue to hurt me, if I put those boundaries in place to protect me, then those offenses should decrease or go away.
Speaker B:And so those are kind of the, the biggest barriers that I, that I see.
Speaker B:Another one is, well, I have to wait for this person to ask for forgiveness.
Speaker B:Well, if you ask for them and they never, if they never ask for forgiveness, well, then now you are held hostage by them.
Speaker B:And that's not fair.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so another one is well off.
Speaker B:I'll wait until I feel.
Speaker B:Feel like forgiving.
Speaker B:Well, if you're bitter and resentful because of what happened, how do you know you're going to feel better?
Speaker B:You won't until you make that choice to let go of the offense, in which case then you will feel better.
Speaker B:So a lot of times I say the difference between bitter and better is.
Speaker A:I. Wow, wow, wow, man.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's a lot.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:I. Yeah.
Speaker A:All right, so I'm gonna as soon a team you know, you, you, the things you listed there, somebody's on a team, they're serving with team and they recognize in a teammate or maybe a teammate recognizes it in them.
Speaker A:How do you respond with somebody?
Speaker A:Confront maybe or challenges or mentions that they recognize that you're holding on to unforgiveness?
Speaker A:Is there ways to have a conversation out with a colleague?
Speaker A:And then how do you receive that when somebody asks you if, hey, Aaron, Aaron, I recognize in your life that I'm seeing some things that you just mentioned there, that in your life you're holding on to unforgiveness.
Speaker A:How would a mature Aaron Santemayer respond?
Speaker A:And then how would a mature Aaron Santomyer when he recognizes it in somebody else's life, how would he gently bring that up in a conversation, not becoming critical and not becoming destructive, but honestly for the other person's good.
Speaker A:So, Dr. Dave, are those fair questions?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So anytime that I'm going to give a carefree confrontation or like I like to call it a carefrontation because failure to confront is permission to continue.
Speaker B:So if I care about the person and I love them, I don't want to see them continue in a way that's not benefiting them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I start with a confrontation or carefrontation with a question.
Speaker B:And everyone, most people will say yes to this.
Speaker B:Hey, Aaron, can I share an observation with you?
Speaker B:Most people are going to be like, yes, so now I have their permission.
Speaker B:Okay, Aaron, I've noticed and I'm going to put on me, it's an observation.
Speaker B:I could be wrong.
Speaker B:I've noticed that when you're interacting with these certain people, you seem to come across as passive aggressive.
Speaker B:And I know for me, when I was that way, I was holding on to unresent resentfulness and bitterness.
Speaker B:And so I'd hate for you to be held back or held down by these emotions.
Speaker B:A lack of forgiveness that is not going to benefit you with, you know, this current relationship or future relationships.
Speaker B:And I wonder if that's something you'd be willing to, you know, to address.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:If I come from that perspective, most people are going to be receptive and not as defensive.
Speaker B:So I find, I find success in that.
Speaker B:So that's with the other person.
Speaker B:If it's with myself now, probably.
Speaker B:Aaron, I suspect as you and I have been talking, I bet the Holy Spirit's probably been prompting some people of some things within their life that they need to address because how do you know that you've got it?
Speaker B:You think of the person Event and the offense and what emotions come up.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's that anger, bitterness, grudge holding, past aggressive shame or guilt.
Speaker B:That's how you know you've got it.
Speaker B:All right, so now I know I've got it.
Speaker B:Now I'm in a position, Do I do something or do I do nothing?
Speaker B:Well, I've been doing nothing, and I know the results of that.
Speaker B:So if I do something different, I can get different results.
Speaker B:And again, it's a, it's a choice.
Speaker B:You don't have to do it.
Speaker B:You know, the Bible talks about the importance of forgiveness, so let me just name a few.
Speaker B:So Matthew 6, 14, 15, if you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
Speaker B:Now, this is the scary part.
Speaker B:But if you refuse to forgive others, your heavenly Father will not forgive your sins.
Speaker B:Now, there's a principle in this that we have been forgiven of much.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so we want to be able to extend that forgiveness to other people.
Speaker B:And I've said this statement to some, some folks.
Speaker B:I'm curious how this might resonate when they choose not to forgive.
Speaker B:I've said to clients, oh, so now you're God?
Speaker B:Because we don't want to play the role of God.
Speaker B:It's not our place.
Speaker B:God is forgiven.
Speaker B:And so we should freely give as well because we didn't deserve the forgiveness.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And if you think the other person who's offended you doesn't forgive, doesn't deserve the forgiveness.
Speaker B:Now we have a little idea of what God, what Jesus has gone through with his sacrifice.
Speaker B:So that's 1 James 5, 16.
Speaker B:Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you would be forgiven.
Speaker B:It says healed.
Speaker B:Now, of course you'll be forgiven, but people want to be healed.
Speaker B:So when you confess this out loud and in the presence of someone else, there's healing in that.
Speaker B:Similar to that is first John 1:9.
Speaker B:But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.
Speaker B:Now, Aaron, you asked about how it affects us emotionally as well as spiritually.
Speaker B:I've had clients where they had physical symptoms as a result of this Psalm 32, 2:5.
Speaker B:I'm just going to paraphrase.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's holding guilt makes my quote, my body wasted away all day long.
Speaker B:And confession leads to the removal of guilt.
Speaker B:So I'm paraphrasing that a little bit.
Speaker B:But if you have this, that you're holding on to this guilt and your body is being wasted away, those are Physical symptoms as a result of unforgiveness.
Speaker B:And I've seen people set free from physical symptoms that they've been having for years as a result of forgiveness.
Speaker A:Now, good word, good words and appreciate the, the scripture and the insight that comes with it.
Speaker A:Going to shift this a little bit.
Speaker A:So parents and grandparents that are listening into podcast, how can they begin modeling forgiveness in their family?
Speaker A:Because I, I do think.
Speaker A:Well, I shouldn't say for, I'll say for me.
Speaker A:I think a lot of the things I learned in my upbringing I, I thought was the normal way to do it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:So any thoughts for grandparents and parents that are listening into this, how they can model forgiveness in their home?
Speaker B:Yeah, one of the biggest things, and maybe one of the hardest things to do in front of children is to admit when you're wrong, admission of being wrong.
Speaker B:And so with my kids, if I know that I've done wrong, I will go to them and say, hey, this was wrong of me.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I should not have done that.
Speaker B:Will you forgive me?
Speaker B:And so I just modeled out one, a way to reconcile because I always want to work towards reconciliation.
Speaker B:And so I'm modeling out if something has hurt me, I'm going to come to that person and try to reconcile.
Speaker B:So one, admitting when I'm wrong is very helpful.
Speaker B:And when they see that, they're more likely to do it.
Speaker B:Now the opposite is also true.
Speaker B:If I'm one that I have difficulty admitting when I'm wrong and I don't reconcile and try to repair relationships, I'm also modeling out that for kids as well.
Speaker B:So it depends on what we're modeling, I think will be key.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And just, you know, being a parent, there's, there are books out there, but it's, it's a 247 every day, you know, and it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're not necessarily going to get it right every day.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So, want to ask a question about compartmentalization?
Speaker A:So I obviously come from the medical field where there is some benefit of compartmentalizing, you know, because I would go from patient to patient to patient and couldn't necessarily take, you know, what you heard in this room to this room this time, because by the end of the day, if you did that, it, it would just be one ball of a mess.
Speaker A:But sometimes we can compartmentalize our past hurts and not address them.
Speaker A:Is it a, is compartmentalization?
Speaker A:Is it a valid coping mechanism?
Speaker A:Or is it not a valid coping mechanism, but just thoughts on that?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it depends on What?
Speaker B:You're compartmentalizing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:So in the counseling field, we use the term bracketing.
Speaker B:So I'm putting a bracket.
Speaker B:So it's compartmentalization.
Speaker B:And generally speaking, men can do it easier than women, generally speaking.
Speaker B:That's just how the wiring is different.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, so if there are some things in my profession that I am bracketing, that I'm compartmentalizing, that's a coping strategy that is protective for me, and there's benefit to it.
Speaker B:So that's how I know that that's the appropriate way to do it.
Speaker B:Now, if I am what I believe is compartmentalizing, instead, I am avoiding or I am stonewalling, you know, then.
Speaker B:And it's not, and it's causing relationship difficulties, it's causing hardship in my life, maybe then that's the warning side, that that's not the best, most healthy, appropriate way that I maybe am doing this.
Speaker A:Yeah, you have a gift of using the words that it's not to describe what you're looking for.
Speaker A:So you've done it several times throughout the podcast.
Speaker A:You're like, well, you're saying this, but this is.
Speaker A:These are the things that so stonewalling and avoid.
Speaker A:You know, I think sometimes we would say, well, you know, I'm just.
Speaker A:They'll put that under the same bucket of compartmentalization.
Speaker A:But you have a gift to be able to pull out.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What are you saying within that?
Speaker A:So somebody's.
Speaker A:I think, majority of us know what avoiding would be.
Speaker B:Well, what.
Speaker A:What would stonewalling look like?
Speaker B:Yeah, so stonewalling is like the adult way of pouting.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So stonewalling would be, I am completely made myself emotionless.
Speaker B:Like, I put up this stone wall where no.
Speaker B:Or do.
Speaker B:I am just emotionless.
Speaker B:And it's a way to protect myself.
Speaker B:But however, it's going to compromise relationships.
Speaker B:And so then I'm not maybe responding.
Speaker B:I'm not reciprocating any type of emotion or words, and so I am therefore stonewalling.
Speaker A:So it's a.
Speaker A:It's a form of a protective measure, but not a healthy protective measure.
Speaker A:Is that.
Speaker A:Is that fair?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would say so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:It's not benefiting you.
Speaker A:All right, I got one more question for you, and then, well, I've got two more because I'm going to ask you if there's something I should have asked because you're the expert and I don't want to get off here.
Speaker A:And you say, well, Aaron, if you were, you should ask me this question.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:So my last question before I ask you that one is forgiveness and reconciliation.
Speaker A:And Your experience over 20 years, 10,000 clients you've worked with, what are the differences?
Speaker A:Are these same forgiveness and reconciliation?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So forgiveness is more so emotionally and spiritually for me and the burdens of the offenses have caused for me.
Speaker B:So by me choosing forgiveness, I'm letting go of the offense and the emotional, spiritual and physical ramifications of that.
Speaker B:So that would be the process of forgiveness.
Speaker B:Now, reconciliation is where I'm trying to repair and reconcile a relationship, which we should always do.
Speaker B:You know, one thing that we say in our family is always work towards resolution, always work towards reconciliation.
Speaker B:Because when we stop doing that, then relationships can suffer.
Speaker B:Now, as Christians, if we don't work towards reconciliation, then we lose influence.
Speaker B:Now when I say influence, I'm talking about influence for the kingdom.
Speaker B:So if I'm reconciling and I'm trying to repair relationships, now I'm back in influence to where the Holy Spirit can continue to work through me and influence in relationships.
Speaker B:Because we're social creatures by design, relationships are extremely important.
Speaker B:And when we are good at relationships, not only do they benefit, we benefit as well.
Speaker B:So always work towards a reconciliation.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Last question.
Speaker A:What's a question I should have asked that I didn't ask.
Speaker A:And then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So usually whenever I'm, I'm teaching on this, this topic, which I'm very passionate about, you're probably familiar with the five love languages.
Speaker B:Gary Chap.
Speaker B:I suspect most people are not familiar with the five languages of apology.
Speaker B:Would you, Are you familiar with that?
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:That's, that's a good one for me.
Speaker A:I've not heard that.
Speaker B:Similar to this, I, I kind of teach on the five languages of apology.
Speaker B:And let me just tell you what those five are, because once you're going through reconciliation, how you reconcile or how you apology accept an apology is different based on your language of apology.
Speaker B:So here's the five.
Speaker B:And sometimes when I go through this, people say, well, I'm all five.
Speaker B:Well, you can be, but there's tend to be some primary ones.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:So the first one is expressing regret.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So not just an apology, but hearing the words I'm sorry, so expressing regrets.
Speaker B:So for some people, that is the key for them to reconcile things.
Speaker B:Now the second one, and I'm briefly kind of going over these, is accepting responsibility.
Speaker B:Now this is, this is mine.
Speaker B:So someone says, for example, I was running late or this person hurt my Feelings, whatever the reason is, it doesn't change the fact that what we did was wrong and hurtful.
Speaker B:So there needs to be an admission of responsibility.
Speaker B:So, for example, when my kids say, I'm sorry, and this is my language, accepting responsibility, I'll say, sorry for what?
Speaker B:Because I need to hear them, I'm sorry that I was disrespectful.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Now that's what I needed.
Speaker B:I needed you here.
Speaker B:Accepting responsibility.
Speaker B:So that's the second one.
Speaker B:Third one is making restitution.
Speaker B:So that's reassuring the other person that they are loved.
Speaker B:Sometimes we need some sort of sincere apology where they're going to be encouraging them to assure that there's no longer going to be that.
Speaker B:That we're good, you know, assuring them that I'm loved.
Speaker B:So I'm making things right with restitution.
Speaker B:So for some people, that is the key for them.
Speaker B:The fourth one is genuinely repenting.
Speaker B:So for some, they need the person to verbalize their desire to never hurt you in that way again and have a plan.
Speaker B:Now, of course, I can't guarantee that I'll never hurt you again or that I'll never raise my voice or be disrespectful.
Speaker B:However, I want to let you know that my desire was not to hurt you and that in the future I'm going to be more cognizant of my tone of voice so it doesn't come across as disrespectful.
Speaker B:That would be genuinely repenting.
Speaker B:And then the fifth one is requesting forgiveness.
Speaker B:Just actually saying the words, will you forgive me?
Speaker B:For some people, asking for forgiveness is the key for them.
Speaker B:And so, Aaron, I'm going to give you the perfect apology.
Speaker B:Okay?
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So listeners can memorize it, they can write this down because it has all five of them together in one.
Speaker B:So if I'm ever working with someone, I don't know what their language apology is.
Speaker B:If I say the perfect apology, which then it hits all things.
Speaker B:Okay, here we go.
Speaker B:I wanted you to know that I am truly sorry and regret what I did.
Speaker B:That's the first one.
Speaker B:Because it was hurtful to you and I was wrong for whatever I specify I did.
Speaker B:That's the second one.
Speaker B:You're important to me and I value our relationship and you didn't deserve to be treated like that.
Speaker B:That's the third one.
Speaker B:That is why I'm going to take more mindful steps of this in the future and make a greater effort to not do it again.
Speaker B:That's the fourth one.
Speaker B:And then will you forgive me?
Speaker A:Man, this.
Speaker A:That was worth the list.
Speaker A:Worth a listen.
Speaker A:Love it.
Speaker A:Love it.
Speaker A:Dr. Dave, it's been an honor to spend some time with you today.
Speaker A:Will you pray for us that God will use what you've shared today?
Speaker A:Not just so we have more information.
Speaker A:And this is not a theoretical conversation that people are listening in today, but you've given us some great practical insights that we can apply in our life each and every day.
Speaker A:So taking this from knowledge to action, will you pray for us?
Speaker B:Absolutely, yes.
Speaker B:Yes, Lord, we thank you for this opportunity to share truth and to use truth, Lord, to set people free, God, because you are the standard of truth.
Speaker B:And, Lord, your word says how important it is, God, that we have received forgiveness from you.
Speaker B:And we thank Jesus for his sacrifice and making a way for us to come to the Father, Lord, as your creation, Lord, as your sons and daughters, God, we want to try to live our best, to be like Christ.
Speaker B:And part of that is exemplifying forgiveness.
Speaker B:So, Lord, I pray that your Holy Spirit would bring to mind each person who is listening.
Speaker B:Bring to their mind, Lord, any areas of their life where unforgiveness, bitterness and resentfulness, shame or guilt lies so that, Lord, they can address it.
Speaker B:And by doing so, Lord, they can be set free from the emotions tied to the offense that's holding them back, Lord.
Speaker B:And Lord, if they feel led, God, I ask that you would give them the opportunity to say out loud, in the presence of someone else, the name of the person, what they did and how it made them feel and how they're no longer going to hold on to that.
Speaker B:And so, Lord, we thank you that we can extend forgiveness as you have extended forgiveness to us.
Speaker B:And we thank you, Lord, that we can be set free in so many ways through the power of your Holy Spirit.
Speaker B:So I pray a special blessing upon Aaron, Lord, and his podcast.
Speaker B:And I pray, Lord, for this listeners, God, that you would draw them closer to you so that you can continue to draw closer to them.
Speaker B:And I ask these things in the powerful name of Jesus.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:Amen.
