Justin and Megan Wright on Emotionally Healthy Discipleship / Back Channel with Foth
Justin and Megan Wright join us today to have an inspiring and thought provoking conversation on Emotionally Healthy Discipleship.
Takeaways:
- Dick Foth highlights the pervasive nature of leadership transitions within ministry, leading to fatigue among individuals involved.
- Emotional health is integral to spiritual maturity, as articulated by Peter Scazzero, emphasizing the necessity of integrating both aspects.
- The process of emotionally healthy discipleship involves introspection and understanding one's emotional responses to various stimuli and circumstances.
- Participants are encouraged to assess their emotional states and discern how these feelings connect to their spiritual journeys.
- A significant focus is placed on identifying and breaking free from the bonds of familial patterns that influence one's current emotional responses.
- The importance of slow, deliberate growth in discipleship is stressed, suggesting that true transformation requires time and reflection.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker B:So excited to be here again today with our friend Dick Foth for another session of Back Channel with Foeth.
Speaker B:Before we jump into our interview with the rights.
Speaker B:Dick, welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:These are special moments for me.
Speaker C:I don't know if you get anything out of it, but I like it.
Speaker B:No, it's fun.
Speaker B:It is a fun, fun time.
Speaker B:Dick, got two questions for you today.
Speaker B:The first question is, I'm getting.
Speaker B:The person says, I'm getting tired of leadership transitions that others make and then impact my ministry.
Speaker B:Is this common in ministry to get tired of constant change?
Speaker C:The short answer from my side to that is, boy, I think so.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:And the challenge.
Speaker C:And I don't know, again, I don't know the context for the question exactly, but the challenge is that we live in a day when everything is speeding up.
Speaker C:We're not slowing down.
Speaker C:This isn't the old simple life on the farm or not that that was simple in a lot of ways, but in terms of pace, I mean, we're just.
Speaker C:I don't know that we need a nuclear explosion to blow the world up.
Speaker C:I think we just go faster and faster and we blow up, you know.
Speaker C:But I think I would ask the question what.
Speaker C:When we, when we talk about leadership transitions that impact my ministry, I think I would ask the question, how do I see my ministry?
Speaker C:And by that, I think the question may come out of this has been my role.
Speaker C:What, whatever it is in the mission, whatever it is in the country, this has been my role, let's say, for however many years.
Speaker C:But, but now we're sort of getting a revolving door in, in, in people above me in the hierarchy.
Speaker C:And every time that changes, you know, fresh vision or new structures come in and I have to learn a new dance, you know, have to be able to, you know, I, I wanted, as they used to say in those old dance, was the one who brung you.
Speaker C:Well, the one who brung me ain't there anymore.
Speaker C:So I think maybe the question has to do with how do I deal with changes when it affects my role?
Speaker C:And I would just say that, listen, listen, ask questions, see if something different is expected of, of you.
Speaker C:1.
Speaker C:But the question is, I'm getting tired of leadership transitions and is this common to get tired, constant change?
Speaker C:And again, I come back to the answer, yes.
Speaker C:But I would also say this.
Speaker C:You know, it's often said that the two things we can count on are death and taxes.
Speaker C:I would submit it to death, taxes and change.
Speaker C:And because, because Change is the nature of human existence.
Speaker C:And I think it depends on what kind of gifts or interior structure one has.
Speaker C:Yeah, if you're, if you're a, if you have a developer personality, where you like to start new things, changes your gig, that, that's your deal.
Speaker C:If, if you were in fact somebody who's a maintainer, if you will, and we need maintainers, we need people to help keep the, the structures, the institutional things moving forward, then change is a.
Speaker C:Is a challenge for us.
Speaker C:It's sort of the old model of pioneers and settlers.
Speaker C:It's that.
Speaker C:So, so I think I have to ask myself the question, am I a pioneer or settler in that regard?
Speaker C:The other piece of this that I would, that I would say is that the antidote to seeing change as a.
Speaker C:Is a difficult thing.
Speaker C:Structural change, I think, would be Romans 12, when we.
Speaker C:And I don't mean that it's a platitude, but in Romans 12, when Paul is speaking.
Speaker C:Let me make sure that I get it, say it right here.
Speaker C:Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies.
Speaker C:It's a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your true proper worship.
Speaker C:Don't conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, which I think in part means how I think about things.
Speaker C:So if I can, if I can have the engine of my soul being the transformation of me from the inside out, then the things that tend to impact me from the outside in don't carry quite as much freight.
Speaker C:Doesn't mean they're not real, and it doesn't mean that I don't have to adapt.
Speaker C:But, but that really, that really speaks to me.
Speaker C:And anyway, good word.
Speaker B:I remember sitting on a rock out in the middle of nowhere, Madagascar, with a Malagasy, an old gentleman, older gentleman, and he said, he said, you know, the problem with our country is, is we have one president decides we're going to run the mile race.
Speaker B:And he said, we train for four or five years and learn to run the mile race.
Speaker B:And then the next president comes and says we're going to do the 100 yard dash.
Speaker B:And he said, we get good at something and then someone comes in and changes it.
Speaker B:And so, you know, I was a lot younger then and I thought, well, that's an interesting thought.
Speaker B:But I've thought, anyway, I've thought about him, him sitting on that rock and his insight and what it is, a powerful insight.
Speaker B:Dick.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker B:The same person asked about getting weary and, well, doing any more Thoughts on that.
Speaker B:They said, how have you navigated leadership change without getting weary and well, doing well?
Speaker C:I, I would, I would come back to, to this thought of ministry.
Speaker C:What, what is my ministry?
Speaker C:Is it the role that I fill?
Speaker C:Because I've, you know, I'm now in my ninth decade.
Speaker C:That, that sounds a lot older than saying I'm in my early 80s.
Speaker C:But, but, but I've had a number of different roles.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I think the essence of me in terms of giftings callings have stayed the same in those various roles.
Speaker C:And, and I think, I think when you're, when you're in your sweet spot, whatever you determine your sweet spot to be, which many people would say, okay, what is it that you do well and that you like doing?
Speaker C:That's your sweet spot.
Speaker C:There are a lot of people who do something well, but they don't like it.
Speaker C:And there are other people who really like doing stuff, but they don't do it well.
Speaker C:You know, all of us have those pieces, but where those two pieces come together.
Speaker C:Years ago somebody said, where those two pieces come together, that's the will of God for you.
Speaker C:Well, that, that thought is that when I think about both, what's your ministry?
Speaker C:You know, I can say, well, I have pastored and I have been an associate and I have been principal of a little Christian school, and I have been president of a college, and I have been these.
Speaker C:But at the heart of that is that.
Speaker C:That thing that makes me want to get up in the morning.
Speaker C:There are some people listening to me who say, you know, I can't wait to get up and go out and find somebody and just share Jesus with.
Speaker C:And there are other people say, I can't wait to get up and just help this system be smoother so people can get up and go share Jesus with people.
Speaker C:And, you know, all of us have these different roles.
Speaker C:And I have a, have a book that I like to read.
Speaker C:I don't, you know, like, like most books, all of it, I don't necessarily buy from me.
Speaker C:But, but, but there's a quote here.
Speaker C:E.
Speaker C:Stanley Jones spent 35 years as a, as a minister in India, missionary in India, and he worked with the elite.
Speaker C:And he would have these discussions across religious lines.
Speaker C:There are, I don't know, there's a country in the world that has more religious systems than India.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:But, but this is a quote.
Speaker C: a stroke in Satal, India, in: Speaker C:He says, I've Often said, half jokingly, that when I get to heaven I'll ask for 24 hours to see my friends and then I shall go to him and say, haven't you a world somewhere which has fallen?
Speaker C:People who need an evangelist like me, please send me there.
Speaker C:For I know no heaven beyond preaching the gospel to people.
Speaker C:That's heaven.
Speaker C:To me.
Speaker C:It has been, is and ever shall be.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker C:And, and I think finding that thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:For us, then whatever structural changes happen, affect us less because we found that place that, that groove I hate.
Speaker C:That's not the best word but.
Speaker C:But yeah, that, that place for which I feel designed.
Speaker B:So no, it's a good word.
Speaker B:And phenomenal quote.
Speaker B:Um, phenomenal quote from him.
Speaker B:That is an excellent quote.
Speaker B:Well, Dick, we appreciate your wisdom insight on Back channel with folks.
Speaker B:We're going to go ahead and jump into our, our interview with Justin and Megan Wright and looking forward to it.
Speaker B:Well, there's no time better than now to get started.
Speaker B:So here we go.
Speaker B:Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.
Speaker B:Excited to have some friends today.
Speaker B:Normally when I'm recording, I don't have other people that are in West Virginia with me, but these people are just a little bit down the road in West Virginia with me.
Speaker B:The rights.
Speaker B:Welcome to the podc.
Speaker A:Thank you, Aaron.
Speaker A:Happy to be here.
Speaker D:We're glad to join you.
Speaker B:It's exciting.
Speaker B:So I'm, I'm excited about today.
Speaker B:I've been excited and looking forward to it for a few days.
Speaker B:Will you guys go ahead and just.
Speaker B:Ladies and gentlemen, sorry.
Speaker B:Share a little bit about yourself before I start asking a bunch of questions today about emotionally healthy discipleship and.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And spirituality.
Speaker B:We share a little bit about yourselves.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So my name is Justin.
Speaker A:I'm a pastor at South Ridge Church in Fairmont, West Virginia.
Speaker A:I've been with the church for 20 years now since we first started and I was introduced to this material, the emotionally healthy discipleship material about I don't know, 14, 15 years ago maybe and have just been involved with it ever since.
Speaker D:And I'm Megan, I'm his wife.
Speaker D:So we've been in co laboring in ministry together for right around the whole time of our marriage, which will be 25 years this year.
Speaker D:I found myself in a lot of various roles.
Speaker D:I'm currently launching kids into the world and I'm also a spiritual director.
Speaker D:Like that's the path God has placed me on.
Speaker D:So I offer spiritual tunement and listening to anyone who's looking for that as well.
Speaker D:So.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:Exciting, Exciting.
Speaker B:So fellow West Virginians are, Are you fans of pepperoni rolls or not?
Speaker D:I am not originally from West Virginia.
Speaker D:I have adapted.
Speaker D:I have my favorites and my non favorites.
Speaker D:Justin.
Speaker A:Well, he'll say definitely there usually isn't a bad pepperoni roll, but there can be, there can be.
Speaker B:So, well, let's, well, let's jump in.
Speaker B:The people, the people listening to podcasts know I'm proud for being from West Virginia.
Speaker B:So I thought I'd ask fellow West Virginians.
Speaker B:Megan, I know you're a transplant, but you're probably your driver's license from West Virginia.
Speaker B:So anyway, we'll, we'll go over there.
Speaker B:So let's jump in.
Speaker B:So emotionally healthy discipleship.
Speaker B:What is, what is that?
Speaker B:And yeah, just, just share a little bit about it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it's probably been 25 years now, maybe more since Peter Scazzero first got the material launched out nationally.
Speaker A:So Peter Schazzero was the lead pastor of a church in New York, Brooklyn, and he just worked through this material, put it all together over a number of years, and just really created a church culture under the premise that you cannot be spiritually mature without also being emotionally mature.
Speaker A:And so he has really.
Speaker A:The course comes in two parts.
Speaker A:There's emotionally healthy spirituality, it's part one, and then emotionally healthy relationships is part two.
Speaker A:Each of those is an eight week course to work through the material and just learn new skills.
Speaker D:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker D:And I would say that when it comes to what it looks like to be emotionally healthy spiritually is having margin in your life to be a human being, not a human doing, to not be reactive all the time to every bit of news, every bit of information and circumstances you're in, to be a non anxious presence.
Speaker D:And I think also if you're looking at what unhealthy spirituality looks like, you're saying, oh, I'm a billboard, I have to have a certain Persona, I have to look a certain way, I have to do certain things in order to be loved by God, to be recognized and spiritually mature in other people's eyes.
Speaker D:So really there's a lot of fear that underlines that unhealthy spirituality as well.
Speaker D:So that's an introduction to the course as well as like kind of the markers of what healthy versus unhealthy looks like.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker B:Good word.
Speaker B:So how were you guys introduced?
Speaker B:Introduced to this and how has it impacted you individually?
Speaker B:And then we'll begin to ask some questions about how it all works, works out, but how's it impacted you both?
Speaker A:Yeah, so as for how I was introduced to the course, the lead pastor that founded our church gave me a copy of the book the Emotionally healthy church about 14 or 15 years ago.
Speaker A:That book is no longer in print, so I don't recommend it.
Speaker A:It has been rewritten, revamped.
Speaker A:We can talk more about that later.
Speaker A:But he gave me a copy of the book.
Speaker A:I was in seminary.
Speaker A:I had zero time to really invest in yet another book on my pile.
Speaker A:But then another lead pastor friend, he, he said, I, he attended a conference at New Life Church in Brooklyn.
Speaker A:And he said, I think that Peter Schizzero is really hitting something that is a massive need in churches in the west today.
Speaker A:And so with, with two lead pastors saying, hey, you should read this.
Speaker A:I, I decided, you know what, I'm going to read it.
Speaker A:And as I read it, I'm always open to share this with people.
Speaker A:I, I really dug into the principles.
Speaker A:It made a whole lot of sense to me.
Speaker A:And I became very good at identifying growth areas in other people and thought to myself, you know what, if they would just put these principles into place in their own life, my life would be so much better.
Speaker A:And over about a year, God very much convicted me in that.
Speaker A:He's like, hey, these principles aren't for you to judge other there for you to really focus on your inner life.
Speaker A:And that sent me on a journey of about 18 months, two years of utilizing this material, getting some good personal counseling and other things just to grow in Christ likeness in ways that I hadn't before.
Speaker B:Wow, thank you for sharing that, Justin, for sure.
Speaker B:Megan.
Speaker D:For me, it was definitely.
Speaker D:I've been an avid reader.
Speaker D:I enjoy all things spiritual development and spiritual formation.
Speaker D:And so I read the book, but it wasn't until desperation like, oh, life isn't going quite the way I want it to.
Speaker D:We went through some loss and difficulties in relationships somewhere in our mid-30s.
Speaker D:And we're like, okay, we actually need what this is talking about.
Speaker D:So I would say I came to it from having read the book.
Speaker D:But then need and desperation made me say, okay, God, what is it that you're actually trying to communicate?
Speaker D:Because I need to listen.
Speaker D:I need more emotional and spiritual health.
Speaker D:So what does that look like?
Speaker D:So a little bit of desperation in.
Speaker B:My story and wow.
Speaker B:And I appreciate you both sharing with transparency because I think sometimes, at least the church, you know, sometimes we don't share with transparency like that.
Speaker B:And I think that the reality of it is we've all had difficult, challenging times in our life and to have a resource like this that can help us and know that we're not the only one that have had challenges is.
Speaker B:Is a blessing.
Speaker B:So thank you both for sharing that.
Speaker B:So what are some of the questions?
Speaker B:Maybe, Megan, we'll start with you this time.
Speaker B:What are some of the questions someone can begin to ask themselves to understand if they're spiritually mature or but emotionally immature?
Speaker B:Is that a fair question?
Speaker D:Yeah, I think that's a very fair question.
Speaker D:I think it's one of those that you have to develop this sense of consent to what God wants to do.
Speaker D:You can't force yourself to become emotionally mature.
Speaker D:You can force yourself to follow disciplines and grow in your knowledge of God.
Speaker D:But when it comes to understanding your emotional maturity, you have to say, okay, God, I consent to noticing what are my reactions?
Speaker D:So a very common way is what is bothering me?
Speaker D:Am I reactive?
Speaker D:Am I feeling upset?
Speaker D:Am I able to name what is going on?
Speaker D:So for me, the first question is, what God do you want me to notice about my emotions?
Speaker D:Is a very basic first question to begin answering.
Speaker D:And when you ask, what am I noticing about my emotions?
Speaker D:Then the second question would be, what is that telling me about me?
Speaker D:And what is that telling me about you?
Speaker D:God?
Speaker D:Because if we're trying to hide from God the emotions that we're noticing, perhaps there is something that God is saying, oh, I actually knew about that emotion.
Speaker D:I'm aware of all the things.
Speaker D:So how are you inviting me to speak to you through that emotion, in that emotion?
Speaker D:So I always recommend knowing what am I noticing about my reactions?
Speaker D:What.
Speaker D:What parts of me are trying to perform or wear a mask.
Speaker D:Those are always good starting questions to understand is the spiritual maturity, emotional maturity working in, in tandem with one another.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker B:Justin, any more thoughts?
Speaker A:Yeah, I'll start with this.
Speaker A:If you go on to the emotionally healthy website, it's just emotionallyhealthy.org there's actually a assessment that they have there that you can do online or you can print out a PDF of it.
Speaker A:And it goes through a number of questions and categories to help you discover whether you are an emotional infant, child, adolescent or adult in a number of categories.
Speaker A:And most people don't like that assessment because they discover that they are an emotional child in some areas in life.
Speaker A:And I just say, hey, this is.
Speaker A:It's an assessment just to help you identify growth areas in your life or areas that are underdeveloped.
Speaker A:It's not, it's not there to condemn you or anything like that, but that's what it's For.
Speaker A:But Megan was right on.
Speaker A:Anytime that something is bothering you and you feel overly reactive, if you do not, if you have expectations that you're placing on others, but you haven't communicated those expectations, if you're making assumptions about other people, telling a story about yourself, about what happened, that person over there, they think this about me.
Speaker A:You don't know that.
Speaker A:So there's all kinds of ways that people inhibit emotional dis.
Speaker A:Health in their lives.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And as you've navigated this, as you've walked people through this, this, this course, have you noticed any common roadblocks of helping?
Speaker B:Because I'll speak for me.
Speaker B:So I don't want to speak for other people, but for Aaron, some.
Speaker B:There was a.
Speaker B:Definitely a period in my life where I didn't.
Speaker B:The spiritual side and the emotional side, I didn't see the integration of those two.
Speaker B:And so.
Speaker B:And honestly, I didn't necessarily.
Speaker B:To see the integration between the two.
Speaker B:I could, you know, I could live in this separate world.
Speaker B:These, these boxes.
Speaker B:Are there any common roadblocks?
Speaker B:Or maybe I'm.
Speaker B:Maybe it's just me.
Speaker B:Any common roadblocks you've seen when you tried to help others recognize that there is a real connection here between our spirituality and our emotions and how they integrate together?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think the biggest roadblock that comes into mind is just we are raised in our family of origin and live life in a certain way and learn everything, difficult emotions, grief, loss, sadness, that kind of thing from that family of origin.
Speaker A:And when we get older, we think that's just the way it is.
Speaker A:I don't need to grow in these areas.
Speaker A:This is just the way it is supposed to be.
Speaker A:And we don't realize, people in general don't realize how deeply rooted some of these things are in their lives, and they don't want to do the work to change.
Speaker A:So when you're talking about, you know, it's easy to read the Scriptures and learn all about forgiveness.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:It's a lot harder to actually walk through steps of forgiveness with somebody.
Speaker A:It's easy to read the Scriptures and understand what it says about grief.
Speaker A:And you see David grieving and lamenting all through the Psalms.
Speaker A:You see Jeremiah, he was extremely depressed.
Speaker A:He likely wrote the book of Lamentations in the Old Testament.
Speaker A:You see Jesus express anger, sadness, grief, loss, His.
Speaker A:His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.
Speaker A:You see all of this, and it's easy to talk about, but it's about him experiencing it.
Speaker A:But people don't want to talk about how they've experienced it in their own lives.
Speaker A:And that's what it, you know, that is what growth looks like, is that you have to be open and vulnerable and really dig into what's happening beneath the surface in your life.
Speaker B:That's a good word.
Speaker B:Great word.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker D:I feel like some of the roadblocks that I encounter in this material is that people who have grown up in the church and are really so invested in the scriptures, it can be jarring and disconcerting to understand particularly emotional laden words.
Speaker D:You're going to hear some psychological terms that just have people at dissonance with what does the scripture say versus what's modern, you know, psychobabble like.
Speaker D:So it is definitely can be concerning to them.
Speaker D:But if you look at scriptures, you're going to see that if we read through western eyes, we lose some of the original language that was very emotive, that was very body and mind and soul wrapped around it.
Speaker D:And so I think the body, mind, soul connection is new for many of us that grew up in evangelical settings where we just denied some of the more emotive language that the scriptures have and that the original audience and those who interact, interacted with Jesus would have more easily understood.
Speaker D:So it can feel off putting to talk about your feelings.
Speaker D:But if we don't talk about our feelings and the emotions that we experience, we don't understand why gave that God gave those to us.
Speaker D:Like if you look at anger, God gave us anger to fight danger or to.
Speaker D:And he gave us fear to flee something that would be danger.
Speaker D:But if we try to suppress all of them, we don't actually look at the reason God gave us these emotions.
Speaker D:So I think sometimes the language can be off putting if people aren't willing to say, okay God, allow me to partner with you as I read something that might be outside of my comfort zone when it comes to the language that is used.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, as I've learned sometimes as we walk through this, when you realize that there's at least for me, I'll speak for me, there's gaps there.
Speaker B:Then you want.
Speaker B:And it takes work.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And it takes introspection.
Speaker B:And sometimes you talk about having margins in our life to do this work.
Speaker B:You have to have margin in your life to be able to spend the time to be introspective and to think about, to consider, to ponder.
Speaker B:And I think maybe some of the world we live in today, me included, you get moving so fast that you don't necessarily want to consider the connections and the integration as you move Forward.
Speaker B:So anyway, that's one thing.
Speaker A:The reality, Aaron, is that we all have time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We just don't make the time.
Speaker A:We choose to spend our time doing things that aren't as helpful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But when we actually dig in, you know, this is what I like to say.
Speaker A:At least here in.
Speaker A:In modern culture, we regularly communicate that the gospel changes everything.
Speaker A:But do we really believe that when it comes to emotional health as well?
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:And I think people need to recognize, oh, if the gospel really does change everything, then we need to dig in a bit.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a good word.
Speaker B:Good word.
Speaker B:So, you know, one of the most common reasons that people leave the field, mission field, is conflict.
Speaker B:And so anytime we can have a conversation and I can learn about a resource that can help people navigate conflict, I like to ask this question, and so how does the emotionally healthy discipleship.
Speaker B:How does that help somebody navigate conflict?
Speaker B:And does it.
Speaker A:You want me to go first, Megan?
Speaker A:You want to go?
Speaker D:You can go.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So anybody who works for any organization, any relationship, they're always going to say that communication and conflict resolution are the two biggest growth areas that they have.
Speaker A:That's just across the board.
Speaker A:So here's the best way that I can answer this question.
Speaker A:The Emotionally Healthy relationships course helps people grow in eight different skills.
Speaker A:The eighth skill is conflict resolution.
Speaker A:They call it clean fighting.
Speaker A:And what happens is people come in and they say, all right, let's just turn to session eight or session seven and talk about this eighth skill so we can get this down.
Speaker A:And the reality is, that's not how it works.
Speaker A:Skill number one is learning some healthy communication practices.
Speaker A:Skills number two and three have to do with making assumptions and clarifying expectations.
Speaker A:And the difficult reality that people have is you have to master skills 1 through 7 in order to clean fight well.
Speaker A:And again, most people don't want to put in the time and the energy and the effort to master those first seven skills so that they're able to handle conflict in a healthy way.
Speaker A:Perhaps one of the skills that's most helpful in my own life, it's called the Ladder of Integrity.
Speaker A:And it's just a.
Speaker A:It's an exercise through this program which just helps you identify what personal values you have and how those values are being violated in a.
Speaker A:In a season of conflict.
Speaker A:And so when you're able to dig in and dig really deep and identify, oh, here's the value I have that's being violated here, and you're able to find ways to communicate that in a healthy way, it makes the.
Speaker A:The conflict Conversation a lot easier.
Speaker D:It's a good word, I think, when it comes to conflict, it's also, how do I learn the larger scope of how to be a person of discernment when it comes to conflict?
Speaker D:Is this conflict within me?
Speaker D:Is this interpersonal conflict?
Speaker D:Is this conflict that would make me need to confront or hold accountability here?
Speaker D:Understanding what is the overarching goal of what is this conflict?
Speaker D:And what is the piece of discernment that God is asking and inviting me to participate in here?
Speaker D:Conflict is obviously something that has multiple layers.
Speaker D:And hopefully when people are looking at conflict, they have other safe spaces and people that they can navigate through that can hold them to saying, okay, what if this is assumptions or expectations or something in you that is.
Speaker D:Is unsettled, that you need to trust God to be at work in you?
Speaker D:And what if this is required for you to kind of make moves towards that person or protect yourself and have boundaries?
Speaker D:So conflict definitely has the overarching.
Speaker D:What is the discernment that God is inviting me to.
Speaker D:And this course doesn't necessarily discuss discernment at length, but it does help you understand what are the elements that I am susceptible to because of my upbringing, because of my personality, because of the habits and the lifestyle that I live that place me in God's wisdom and direct contact with him that I'm able to navigate conflict.
Speaker B:Well, that's good.
Speaker B:Justin, you mentioned that in the workplace, it's common communication and conflict at the same time.
Speaker B:Does this help us also maybe in our marriage or with our adult children or with other, you know, maybe with family members?
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:Does it help there also?
Speaker B:Or is it, you think it's more specifically focused on workplace and ministry or.
Speaker A:It definitely helps in all relationships.
Speaker A:Okay, there are.
Speaker A:We've met with a number of couples, Megan and I have, just for some care and counseling and given one of the communication exercises from this material.
Speaker A:And it's funny because it uses sentence stems, like, start with these specific words and then finish it.
Speaker A:And people are like, do I really have to do that?
Speaker A:And we're like, until you get in the habit of doing this?
Speaker A:Well, yes, use the sentence stems.
Speaker A:That's what they're there for.
Speaker A:And couples laugh as they're going through it because they think it's ridiculous.
Speaker A:But every single time they've come back and they've said, we had a much better week of communication than we did the several months before this.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it works for couples, family units, siblings, any relationships that are out there.
Speaker D:It's good as a Person who's been in the school, public school systems for 20 years, in and out.
Speaker D:We launch into adulthood without actually having had somebody teach us and instruct us in relationship skills.
Speaker D:So we get to adulting and we're like, oh, I actually don't know how to adult in relationships.
Speaker D:We know how we were raised, we know what worked or didn't work.
Speaker D:And then we kind of prepare our own script going from there.
Speaker D:So I do enjoy allowing people to say it's okay to feel like a beginner, because you are.
Speaker D:You're a beginner at every phase of your marriage.
Speaker D:Jocelyn and I are just getting ready to launch our kids.
Speaker D:We'll be empty nesters.
Speaker D:We're gonna have to figure out some new interacting with adult kids.
Speaker D:We're going to have to figure out some new things.
Speaker D:But every stage of marriage and relationships and parenting, you have to learn to begin again.
Speaker D:And so if you can develop the humility to say, hey, there are other people who can help me, there are skills, there are relationships, there are things that I can learn.
Speaker D:And so if you adopt humility and the mindset of a beginner, which I think this material helps you do, I think you'll be better off.
Speaker D:So, yeah, it applies to all kinds of relationships.
Speaker B:Good word, good word.
Speaker B:Emotionally healthy discipleship.
Speaker B:Also, it helps break the bonds of the past.
Speaker B:And we've touched on it just a little bit up to this point.
Speaker B:But what does this really look like?
Speaker B:And what are some of the reasons it's so important to consider the past and some of the bonds of the past and to be able to walk through the process of allowing the Holy Spirit and Jesus to heal those things and to break some of those bonds that come into our present realities.
Speaker D:This course does focus on walking people through a family genogram, which is kind of a family tree, to identify characteristics, patterns, and habits that were passed down to you.
Speaker D:And really what we know from child development and neuroscience is that those formative years are incredibly important.
Speaker D:So even things that happen in the first 18 to 24 years, months are very formative to all of us, and yet we don't always examine them.
Speaker D:And when it comes to becoming a person who has professed faith in Christ, we love to cling to First Corinthians.
Speaker D:I'm a new creation.
Speaker D:The old is gone and the new has come.
Speaker D:And positionally in our salvation.
Speaker D:And the theology is that we are a new creation.
Speaker D:But Pete Scazzero, who wrote a lot of this material, says, christ lives in my heart, but grandpa lives in my Bones.
Speaker D:And so if we don't really look towards some of the things that we've just picked up, that we've been predisposed to react this way, to deny this, to respond in this way, it is something that I believe that if you look at Scriptures, Christ is inviting us into a new way.
Speaker D:If we look at how he discipled, the way that he interacted with them was like, oh, the world says this, or you've heard it said.
Speaker D:Like, you can look in the Sermon on the Mount, you've heard it said this, but in my kingdom, this is how we move forward.
Speaker D:And so this is just one element that says discipleship is about examining what you've heard said, what you've believed, what you've internalized as the way that things are and following Christ, inviting you to consider a different path.
Speaker D:So that is some of the way that it breaks through the past.
Speaker D:It doesn't necessarily go into some of the more spiritual warfare parts of that.
Speaker D:It.
Speaker D:It is.
Speaker D:So there are other resources that work well and speak to that, but this one definitely examines family of origin as its point of breaking bonds of the past.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, what I've seen in.
Speaker B:In majority of my life's been on.
Speaker B:On the mission field is a lot of times missionaries come.
Speaker B:Come to the field and they don't realize their family of origin and the impact that it's had on their life, how they navigate many things.
Speaker B:As missionaries, we look at culture and we're very, you know, we're.
Speaker B:We're told or attuned to study another culture, but it's.
Speaker B:Sometimes we forget to look at our culture, and we might say we're Americans, but then looking at the family unit, realizing that our.
Speaker B:Each family unit has a certain culture or the way, you know, culture is the way you do things, right?
Speaker B:So the way we've done things, then we get on the team and then we think, well, well, this is the way I grew up in my family.
Speaker B:So I'm sure that's the way you grew up in your family.
Speaker B:And then there can be, you know, navigating that.
Speaker B:And so we're more and more encouraging missionaries before they get to the field to consider, you know, their.
Speaker B:Their family of origin, the things that they've.
Speaker B:How their family navigates, certain what they.
Speaker B:That the latter.
Speaker B:You talked about just a man.
Speaker B:I'll have to look into that some more because I think that our values and what we consider important, that can range from family to family, but at least to be aware of it and then ask God to transform, you know, that awareness to how he would like, he would desire for us to be so super important.
Speaker B:I don't think.
Speaker B:Well, I don't think I know that.
Speaker B:I didn't.
Speaker B:When I went to Burkina Faso the first time that I had any idea of how my family of origin would impact that.
Speaker B:I just didn't think about it.
Speaker B:And it did.
Speaker B:It came out in many, many ways.
Speaker B:So many, many ways.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:All right, another question for you.
Speaker B:How does the emotionally healthy discipleship.
Speaker B:How does it help us be better disciple makers?
Speaker A:And this is a really good question.
Speaker A:It's a little challenging to answer.
Speaker A:So let me say this.
Speaker A:I volunteer for the Emotionally Healthy Discipleship ministry.
Speaker A:So I spend maybe five hours a week coaching other churches that are just beginning to get into the material.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And what I've discovered through that is that I'm communicating with so many different denominations and people of backgrounds.
Speaker A:There are the Assemblies of God churches that I've talked with, the Anglican churches, Methodist, Presbyterian.
Speaker A:It just goes across the board.
Speaker A:And that just tells me something, that there is a.
Speaker A:Something has been missing in many different churches and denominations that they are recognizing.
Speaker A:Oh, we need.
Speaker A:We need some help when it comes to emotional health.
Speaker A:So, you know, a lot of.
Speaker A:A lot of churches get into, you know, just normal Bible studies, small group studies, plug and play, that kind of thing.
Speaker A:And so when communicating about this material, we're always really specific to say, hey, this is not a plug and play Bible study.
Speaker A:There's a lot of great Bible studies out there, but this is a course.
Speaker A:You need to read a chapter a week.
Speaker A:You need to read two devotional readings a day.
Speaker A:As you're going through it, you're going to have to revisit the material often.
Speaker A:And at the end of it, we've just given you an introduction to deeper discipleship.
Speaker A:You're probably going to want to go through it again in the future after you wrestle through some things.
Speaker A:And just as a culture, we don't like to do that.
Speaker A:I finished this book.
Speaker A:Let me go on to the next book.
Speaker A:Let me go on to the next book.
Speaker A:And this is like, no, we need you to dig in and dig deep and keep going through some.
Speaker A:Some healthy rhythms that you haven't been a part of for a while.
Speaker A:So it's just introducing discipleship in that way to people of, hey, we're just not going to go from one thing to another thing to another thing.
Speaker A:You're going to have to examine your interior life on a deeper level, on a level that you've never done it before.
Speaker A:And then we're going to ask you to dig deeper.
Speaker D:I think for me, when it comes to this process of emotionally healthy discipleship, you're going to read it or hear it over and over again in material.
Speaker D:It's a slowed down spirituality.
Speaker D:And frankly, most of us are off put by that.
Speaker D:I've got things to do, I've got to do this ministry.
Speaker D:I have to be a part of this.
Speaker D:In fact, I have to organize and oversee and be the preacher and do all the things.
Speaker D:And so slowing down feels absolutely at odds with the way we actually operate to get things done in a ministry setting.
Speaker D:At the same time, the process of God is one that is of slow growth.
Speaker D:I mean, you look at the three years that Christ invested in his disciples and how the, the world developed out of those three years of slowing down and examining things.
Speaker D:When you look at the traject of God's compassion, that he is slow to anger and rich in love.
Speaker D:We understand that God's time dynamics are not ours.
Speaker D:And so it makes us a better disciple maker because we learn to slow down and be with God, not just actively pursue ministry for him, but we actually are ministered to by Him.
Speaker D:And that is challenging not everyone except that easily.
Speaker D:And it takes time for it to really settle in.
Speaker D:It's a different type of life, but it does make us better disciples because I think it opens us to the compassion.
Speaker D:Like when you're ministering to somebody, you're like, they just don't get it.
Speaker D:They just don't get it.
Speaker D:They just don't get it.
Speaker D:And you're like, what am I still not getting in my life with Christ?
Speaker D:And so it opens this compassion to say, okay, but God has them in process.
Speaker D:God's got me in process.
Speaker D:Maybe I'll trust him with that.
Speaker D:And it's not about producing a certain result or going after a certain expectation.
Speaker D:So for me personally, this is just.
Speaker D:For me, it makes me say, okay, I don't have an agenda.
Speaker D:I can just come into this spiritual life and say, okay, God, you've got this.
Speaker D:How can I partner with you in ministry, in my own discipleship and in offering what I have to other people.
Speaker B:Making you kind of sharing on the idea that in the book or in the, the material it talks, the idea of you may, somebody might be listening in saying, hey, I, I'm trying to do for God without being with God.
Speaker B:And that that can be common in ministry.
Speaker B:And, and to be in full transparency.
Speaker B:There were there, there have been times in my life over the last 24 years, that, that was me.
Speaker B:You know, I was, I was trying to do for God without being with God, what wisdom would you both have for somebody listening in and is they, this is beginning to resonate with them and, and that where they're at in this season of life, that that's, that's where they're at.
Speaker B:They're trying to do for God.
Speaker B:They're trying to be a share, share Christ.
Speaker B:They're trying to be a disciple maker, but they're trying to do that without, without being with God and spending time with Him.
Speaker A:Yeah, Jesus said, you'll know my disciples by their love for one another and by their fruit.
Speaker A:And when you live a life in which you're doing for God things that he didn't ask you to do, yeah, you think you're doing it for the right reasons, but he might not have called you to do that thing.
Speaker A:There's going to be less fruit, there's going to be more frustration on your part.
Speaker A:So you've got to slow down and spend time to be with God so that you know what path you're on is the path that he's called you to.
Speaker D:I also, I find that understanding that the way God has uniquely wired you to connect with him might take some creative exploration.
Speaker D:Like there are incredible resources to say, wow, I can learn how to study, I can learn how to pray.
Speaker D:But there's also some trial and error that I think delights God.
Speaker D:When you say, oh, what if I were to carve away five or 10 minutes to just sit and be quiet and not run through my prayer list of intercessory prayer, I gotta pray for this and pray for that.
Speaker D:What does it look like to experience joy?
Speaker D:I think one of the things that serving God, rather than just being with God, one of the ways I think we notice that is do I connect to joy?
Speaker D:Do I connect to relationships?
Speaker D:Do I know what I even like and enjoy?
Speaker D:And that is sometimes that idea of desire and pleasure can be missing for people who are really compelled and know that God has given them a desire to preach, to share the gospel with the world.
Speaker D:But what does God just enjoy?
Speaker D:What delights you, what delights his heart?
Speaker D:And together.
Speaker D:So I think there's some creativity of exploration that can be helpful in learning to be with God and not just do for God.
Speaker B:It's a good word.
Speaker B:I've been went through a time of prayer and fasting to start the year and read over an old book multiple times.
Speaker B:Spiritual Leadership by Oswald Sanders.
Speaker B:And one of the things that Jumped out in there was.
Speaker B:I cannot ask God, I cannot pray to God to give me energy for things he's not asked me to do.
Speaker B:And, and, and that's.
Speaker B:Justin, you kind of hit on that.
Speaker B:And it's.
Speaker B:It's something that really.
Speaker B:It's something that I've come back to and I pray it.
Speaker B:You know, probably I don't want to say every morning, but most mornings, God, in this day, I'm asking you for the energy to do the things that you've asked me to do and help me to discern which.
Speaker B:Megan, you've mentioned discernment and discern and see the things that I'm trying to do that you've not asked me to do.
Speaker B:And it's been.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's been a.
Speaker B:It's been a.
Speaker B:It's been a hard time because I like to do.
Speaker B:I've realized there's certain things I' doing that he's not asked me to do and he's not giving me the energy to do.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, so.
Speaker A:So here's a.
Speaker A:I'm going to give an example for that.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That can make people uncomfortable.
Speaker A:You know, let's say a pastor is hired to go into a small church that is basically dying.
Speaker A:And, and the small board of trustees or however they operate it says, hey, your.
Speaker A:Your job is to get this church growing again.
Speaker A:And maybe that pastor says, is that God's will?
Speaker A:Let's pray about that.
Speaker A:Maybe God's will is for this specific church to fade, but another ministry come in here and revive it under a completely different name and a completely different operating system.
Speaker A:And people don't like to think that way.
Speaker A:Oh, God wouldn't ask us to do that.
Speaker A:Well, maybe he is.
Speaker A:And I think you see that throughout the scriptures.
Speaker A:You know, God might promise something that you don't see the, the fulfillment of that promise for hundreds of years.
Speaker A:And we don't want to wait years for things to happen.
Speaker A:We want to see it right now.
Speaker A:But that just isn't the story that God wrote for us and it's not the life that he's called us to live.
Speaker B:Good word.
Speaker B:So I'm.
Speaker B:I'm praying it.
Speaker B:And God's been.
Speaker B:He's been working on my heart.
Speaker B:Any, Any last words, Megan?
Speaker B:Justin, any last thoughts?
Speaker B:And then I'm going to ask you both if you would pray for us and pray for those listening in.
Speaker D:I think it's just understanding where you're coming from.
Speaker D:Like when you hear this idea of emotionally healthy discipleship.
Speaker D:Emot.
Speaker D:Emotionally healthy spirituality.
Speaker D:How do you respond?
Speaker D:Do you notice anything in your body, in your mind, any sensations that come to mind?
Speaker D:Are you unnerved by it or intrigued by.
Speaker D:By it?
Speaker D:And whether you're unnerved or intrigued by it, just invite the spirit to read your own heart and say, is there more.
Speaker D:Is there more for me to explore here?
Speaker D:And what would be even one small step I could take to explore what this would look like and invite the spirit to read you in that way?
Speaker B:Excellent.
Speaker A:I'm not really sure how to answer the question.
Speaker B:Any last words?
Speaker B:You have any last.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know, I know.
Speaker A:Again, I'm just going to say that the deep work of discipleship and focusing on your inner world really is a deep work.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I grew up in a family that did not do difficult emotions of like, grief, anger, sadness.
Speaker A:Well, and Megan mentioned earlier that we went through a season in life with a lot of difficulty, that kind of thing.
Speaker A:And when those things unfolded, I was like, I do not know how to respond to this because I have not been taught how.
Speaker A:And, you know, one of the.
Speaker A:One of the simple tools from this material is just taking two minutes to write down answers to emotional questions.
Speaker A:What are you angry about right now?
Speaker A:Two minutes, write down everything.
Speaker A:What are you sad about?
Speaker A:What are you anxious about?
Speaker A:And what do you.
Speaker A:What are you glad about?
Speaker A:And I started working through that exercise and was like, wow, I've got a whole lot of stuff that I've pushed down and now I have to process through why am I angry about that?
Speaker A:Why, you know, and.
Speaker A:And how can I respond to that in a healthy way?
Speaker A:And again, that was an 18 to 24 month process for me to really take all of that stuff and dig through it.
Speaker A:And it is a deep work that does take a little bit of time every day, but it's worth it in the end.
Speaker A:It's always worth it.
Speaker B:Good word.
Speaker B:Good word.
Speaker B:Will you both pray for us?
Speaker B:Will you pray for those listening in?
Speaker B:And that's how we'll end the podcast, in prayer?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Heavenly Father, I just, I thank you for Aaron and his ministry.
Speaker A:And I know that this podcast is going out to missionaries all over in a lot of different places, undergoing a lot of different circumstances.
Speaker A:And we just want to pray blessings over them and their families.
Speaker A:We want to pray blessings for their ministries.
Speaker A:We want to pray that ultimately that they would come to know you on a deeper level and they would come to know their specific purpose that you have called them to, that they would just be laser focused on exactly what it is God had called them.
Speaker A:To do and that they will see the fruit as a result of that.
Speaker D:And Father God, I echo that.
Speaker D:And I just ask that you would invite everyone who is hearing this podcast, that they would examine what it is that you're speaking to them as a result, Lord, that they would have a humility to accept that perhaps there is an integration of their mind, their body, their emotions and their soul that they have yet to look at.
Speaker D:I pray, Jesus, that you would accompany them as they begin to look at what it is that you would desire for them to do or what they could release themselves from as a result of listening.
Speaker D:I thank you for this time and I pray that you would be in our midst as anyone listens.
Speaker D:In Jesus name, Amen.
Speaker B:Amen.
Speaker A:Hey, I do have another final word, Aaron, if I may.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:Because you're working with missionaries internationally, I'll note that New Life Community Church in Brooklyn has people from over 60 to 70 nationalities attending.
Speaker A:And that's what the Scazeros discovered Working through this material is it doesn't matter what nationality you're from and what nationality you might be ministering to, these principles just cross those boundaries.
Speaker B:That's good work.
Speaker A:So for all the missionaries who are out there wondering, well, is this actually going to work not just for my life, but the people I'm ministering to, the answer to that, yes, it does.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker B:All right.
